Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:03:24: Some example knowing-doing gaps

00:05:18: Reasons to close the gap

00:07:20: Five ideas for action …

00:07:48: … 1: Fogg Behavior Change Model

00:13:13: … 2: understanding your tendency

00:16:01: … 3: move to having a go

00:20:43: … 4: get a doing mentor

00:26:18: … 5: have a doing dress rehearsal

00:28:28: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we talk about a different topic to do with work, and we share some ideas and some actions that we hope will help you to navigate your Squiggly Career with that bit more clarity and confidence. 

So today, we're talking about the knowing doing gap.  And I think this is one where the minute you start diving into this, you realise there are so many things that we know we "should do", and actually we've got the knowledge about, but for some reason it doesn't quite translate into what we "actually do".  And so, people talk quite a lot about the say-do gap, but I think that's a slightly different thing.  That's sort of where you've almost perhaps been disingenuous, you say one thing, but then you don't actually follow through on it.  I do think perhaps that is slightly worse. But the knowing-doing gap, it's like you've got the knowledge, you've got the know-how, I think actually practically, almost rationally and objectively you know this thing makes sense, but for some reason it just doesn't show up, it's not what you do.  And actually, it can be quite hard to figure out, "Well, why not?" and then, "How do I do something about this?" because, these can be quite a big source of frustrations, I think.

Helen Tupper: And before I share my perspective on this, I need to just apologise.

Sarah Ellis: With a cold!

Helen Tupper: I've got a cold, I'm a bit nasally.  We're just going to have to go with it because the podcast doesn't stop, even when you have a cold.  But we thought we'd try and share some common knowing-doing gaps that we have seen with people that we work with, and we thought we'd share some of ours as well.  So, some that you might relate to are when you know how to prioritise your work, you've got all the theory, but you still never feel like you're particularly in control of it.  Or, maybe you know that you should take breaks in your day, but you keep compromising your boundaries, so you never have a lunch break, for example, you never finish on time.  Or, maybe you know that you should take time to learn, you know that's important, but it's always the last thing on your to-do list. I think what tends to happen is sometimes we think, "Well, I'll just find another tool or another model.  There must be another thing that I could find out about that would help me to do this better".  But the issue is not getting more knowledge, the issue is actually the action happening.  It's the gap that just gets bigger the more you invest in the knowing rather than the doing.

Sarah Ellis: And I do wonder if there is a relationship between almost how long you've known the thing but not been able to do the thing, maybe the harder it gets?  Because over time, it just builds up and you know you need to do this thing, but you just haven't found a way through it.  It might also just be worth reflecting on when you're thinking about your knowing-doing gaps and when we talk about examples and the actions that we're going to go on to, is this something where you've had this know-do gap for a long time, it's been kicking around almost since you started your career or over quite a few years; or does this feel like a relatively new know-do gap, because you'll then get a bit of a sense I think for sort of how deep-seated this is, almost how lodged in your brain it is, and that'll also give you a sense of how hard it might be and to kind of encourage you to take the right actions when we get to that section.

Helen Tupper: I guess it takes you a bit to fix-and-growth mindset, doesn't it, because you might start saying, "Well I just can't do this, I'm not a person who's able to close this gap.  That's just not the kind of thing that I'm good at".  Whereas, if you've got growth mindset, you'd sort of see the gap and know that there was something that you could do to close it and you'd believe that you just hadn't taken that action yet, but that you could.

Sarah Ellis: So should we talk about a few of ours, a few of our knowing-doing gaps?  Initially, I'm not sure it's a super-easy question to answer, when we were both reflecting on this, but something that unlocked the list, because then actually when you get started you're like, "Oh, the floodgates have opened", whereas Helen mentioned that often these knowing-doing gaps are a source of recurring frustration or very familiar frustration.  And I think that's because you've got the knowing but you don't then do anything with it, that sort of feels annoying.  I get annoyed at myself and I sort of question myself like, "Why don't I do this?  I know this is a good thing to do, I know this is the right thing to do".  And so maybe if you're thinking, "I'm not sure what mine are", instead come at it from the point of frustration or getting annoyed at yourself, then that opened up lots of things for me.  So, Helen, which one did you get to as your sort of priority one, because we're going to use these as examples as we go through today?

Helen Tupper: I know, because I've read an awful lot about it and you've told me quite a lot about it, that multitasking is bad.  I know that you end up with tasks switching and you're less effective on all the different activities that you try and do, but I still do it.  I have a real gap between knowing that it's not good for my work, but still kind of habitually multitasking in my days.

Sarah Ellis: And I know that asking and giving feedback is really important.  We've talked about it on the podcast before.  I've read and watched and listened to lots about it, and I do it very infrequently and in a very ad hoc way.  And I certainly don't do it sort of frequently and fearlessly in the way that I want to, and then definitely get mad at myself because of it.  That was just the start of the list.  But we're just going to stick with one example for today.

Helen Tupper: And I guess you've probably got to find a little bit of motivation, which we're going to get into in some of our ideas for action, between keeping the gap and closing the gap.  Because to Sarah's point, if you've been sat with this for a while, you might think, "Well, why do I need to change now?"  But just some kind of high-level reasons about why you might want to close the gap, it's not great to work with frustration every day.  And just to build on the point that Sarah talked about there, in the research, they call it cognitive dissonance.  So, this is where Sarah might say, "I'm a leader who values feedback.  This should be part of the way I work".  And then when you're not doing that, it's almost like an identity-undermining experience like, "I'm not behaving in a way that someone that I believe myself to be should do".  So, closing the gap gets rid of that dissonance, which is not really great for our motivation at work. Also, you stop improving, because if you're just keeping doing something that ultimately isn't working for you, then you might get stuck, or stagnate with your development.  So, that's obviously a bit of an issue if we don't close the gap.  And I think this might sound a bit harsh, but I think other people might lose confidence in your ability to act.  So, for example, if Sarah keeps saying to me, "Helen, I just need you to focus on this project", and I'm like, "No, I will, I will", but I never do, then over time, Sarah is just going to stop asking me to focus on a project because she's not going to have any confidence that I'm actually going to be able to commit to the work.  So, I think some of this is about you, and some of it's probably about other people's experience of working with you.

Sarah Ellis: And we were also reflecting on, you probably have some knowing-doing gaps that are very personal to you, they're really specific to you and your skills and your strengths and what you're not doing but want to do for your own personal development.  But we also think there are probably some team knowing-doing gaps.  So, "As a team, we know we want to do this, but for some reason it's not actually happening".  So, maybe there are some team things.  And then there are often organisation ones as well.  And actually, some of the research, one of the HBR articles, which Helen found, which is actually over 20 years old, talks about this idea of organisations knowing too much and doing too little.  And they describe this as the knowing-doing gap.  So, I think there's three different lenses here that you can look at this from: the organisation lens, the team lens, and then for you personally, which is where we're going to start because we know that's where we have the most control to do something different.

Helen Tupper: So, we've got five different ideas for action to help you close the knowing, doing gap.  And I don't think you have to do all of these, there's a couple of different models.  So, I think it might be worth you thinking, "Which is the most effective one for me to start with", so that you can make a bit of progress.  But we'll go through them in turn and Sarah and I are going to use our gaps to illustrate what they might look like.  So, Sarah, maybe if I talk about the first one and then we take your gap around feedback to bring it bring it to life for people a little bit?

Sarah Ellis: Great.  Can't wait!

Helen Tupper: Steady!  So, the first idea for action comes from someone called BJ Fogg, which I just think is quite a cool name, and he has a very popular model called the Fogg Behavior Change Model.  And the reason we think this is relevant is because closing the gap will probably require a change in your behaviour, because if it was that easy, you would have done it already.  So, there is something that we need to trigger within you that is going to change your behaviour and result in you doing some different and closing this gap.  And what BJ Fogg says in the Behavior Change Model is that there are three elements that have to come together in order for a change in behaviour to occur, so basically in order for you to want to close this gap.  So, the first is motivation, what's the desire to do?  The second is ability, how easy is it for you? 

And the third is a prompt, what's going to make you do it now?  And so when we get these three elements, motivation, ability, and a prompt, when they come together, then we've sort of got the ingredients for a change in behaviour for this sort of, I guess, it's the desire to do the do, that's what we're trying to get to. So, Sarah, if we were going to take your feedback bit and the motivation, what's your desire to change the way that you're approaching feedback at the moment?

Sarah Ellis: So, I actually find this model really helpful because what I've realised is two of these three things I have, but one of them is missing, and that's the reason that I've got the gap.  So, motivation, one of my values is achievement and I know that I'll be better if I get more feedback from people, and also I want to support other people to be even better and explore their potential.  So, I actually have really high motivation personally because there's a really good fit with my values, and also we do talk about feedback in our workshops.  And so, the more that I live and breathe this, the more examples I've got, the more useful I can be, and useful is one of our company values.  So, my motivation actually feels really high. In terms of ability, I'm going to say that I would back myself.

Helen Tupper: "Actually, I'm good!"

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, this is a problem, isn't it, because this is why you've got the know-do gap.  I know how to frame feedback, I've got some good tools, I know what good looks like, and I feel like I could do a decent job of this.  So, I'm sort of not scared, I suppose, of my capability or worried about my capability.  I've realised my problem is the prompt.  So, I don't have any kind of trigger or natural situation where I go, "Oh, okay, this is the moment where I ask for some feedback from people that I work with in Amazing If, the clients that I work with, from you for example.  And I also don't have the other trigger to go, "Oh, and then this is when I give that feedback, or this is the moment where I make that happen, this is the time in my diary where this becomes a reality".  And so, even just by very quickly looking at that triangle of three things, I'm like, "Oh, okay, so one and two is fine, but because I don't have that prompt, I just don't ever do it?"  So, that's my problem. So, I think what that has naturally helped me to do is a bit of red, amber, green on motivation, ability, and prompt.  And essentially, I've kind of spotted that I've got a red on prompt.  And then it makes you think about, "Well, okay, I've got the awareness".  I think what this gets you to quite quickly is awareness, but it perhaps doesn't quite get you to action.  But it at least gets you to thinking about, "Well, what does that action need to be?  What don't I do that I need to start doing?"  And I think some of the other things that we're going to talk about now might help to fill that gap.  So, I wonder if that first bit is just like, "Where am I?"  If all of those three are red, you're like, "Okay, well this is why it's so hard".  What about if you were doing it, Helen, for multitasking?

Helen Tupper: What's my drive to do?  To progress some high-priority projects?

Sarah Ellis: Okay.

Helen Tupper: Well, my ability, I struggle with ability.  I think ability and prompt.  I don't think I necessarily have a trigger.  The motivation I'm really clear about, I really care about some of the high-profile projects, but I think I would need to make it easier to not multitask.  Say, for example, doing that work in a different place because it's kind of hard for me.  Sometimes if I'm trying to do a big project that needs a lot of concentration but I'm doing it at my desk where all the other things that I need to do are around me, I find it really hard to do that.  So, I would need to make it easy probably by having a dedicated day or going to a different place so it creates that environment for me; that would make it easier. 

And then the trigger, I don't know what the trigger would be.  It's probably you holding me to account or something!  Probably just you, probably a whip! But I was thinking, as you were talking, that as well as this being quite a good thing for self-reflection, I think it's also quite a good way that you could support somebody.  If you notice somebody wasn't making progress on something, they had a bit of a gap and they keep going, "I want to move this forward but it's just not happening", or, "I want to work in this way, but I've just not been able to do it", that kind of a thing, I think prompting someone to say, "Well, what's your motivation?  What's getting in your way?  How could you make it easier?  And what's going to be a trigger that would help you to do it?" just those three simple questions, I think, could help someone.  They don't need to know that it's a Fogg Behavior Change model, it's just a couple of little coaching questions you're asking somebody.  But I think that could be quite helpful. So, the second idea for action is a bit of borrowed brilliance from Gretchen Rubin, whose website I had a great time on.  She's got a lovely little happiness AI thing and you can ask it questions, it's good, and loads of free resources, so I'd recommend have a look at her website.  But one of the quizzes on her website is about understanding your tendency, and your tendency affects how likely you are to stick to things and commit to doing things, and she identifies four different tendencies.  So, for example, there's the upholder tendency; these are people that respond readily to outer and inner expectations.  So, if Sarah expects me to do it, then I'm going to get it done, I will uphold what I say I'm going to do.  There's the questioner tendency that will only commit to something if they are convinced.  So, if Sarah asks me to do something, I need to ask her a few questions to see whether I buy into doing it.  There's the obliger who is like, "Well, if you do it, then I'll do it".  So, it's almost like there's an expectation that they're trying to meet, an outer expectation.  So, it's less about my inner motivation, it's more I don't want to let Sarah down.  And then there's the rebel, and they are just counter, basically.  So, they'll only do it if they've decided to do it.  So, if Sarah says to me, "Oh, Helen, I think you should stop multitasking", I'd be like, "Yeah, great idea, Sarah, I'm not going to do it. The point here is, if you understand your tendency, you can kind of design your doing around it, so you're more likely to stick at it.  And so, there is actually the quiz and it will tell you what your tendency is.  So, I came out as a rebel, for example, which means I will only decide to do something if it is my decision to do it.  So, the multitasking thing, for example, there's not much point Sarah saying to me, "I think you should just focus on one thing this week and get it done".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I know.  I've tried that.

Helen Tupper: She's tried it.

Sarah Ellis: I've tried, it's just not made any difference.

Helen Tupper: I need to design my week in a way that's going to work for me, and then once I've done that, I'm probably going to be more committed to taking that action.  And so, the point here really is maybe take the test.  It's super-quick, it's a couple of minutes.  It's got some really interesting insights, but understand how your tendency could help you to design the doing so that you're more likely to commit to it.  So, for example, if you come out as an obliger, maybe you could -- I could make a commitment to Sarah and say, "Well, I'm going to do this for you by the end of the week", and I'd be more likely to do it because I've got that tendency of obligation, which could increase my kind of stickability at this thing.

Sarah Ellis: And I think we will move swiftly past the fact that we are both rebels and what that might mean for how difficult we both are to work with!  Of all of them, it's like, "Well, you can't make me and I basically can't make myself and I really just have to decide for myself".  So, I was like, "Oh, fun, we sound fun, don't we?" So, our third action is how you move from those gaps to what we're calling, "Having a go".  So really practically, what does this look like?  And we've got four questions, and I thought I would talk through mine around feedback, to then hopefully, by the time you've gone through these four questions, you are getting to having a go, so you are moving from essentially doing nothing to doing something which, like you said, it does feel a bit harsh but that is our reality.  So, question one, "What's my gap?" 

So, I would say, "Asking and giving feedback as frequently as I would like".  Question two, "What's my goal?"  Frequent and fearless feedback, so I'm really clear about what I want that outcome to be.  Question three, "What's getting in the way?"  Time, spotting the situation, which I now know that's getting in my way because I've done that analysis of the motivation and the moments and the prompts.  So, both time spotting the situation and probably sometimes worrying about people's responses, maybe if it's more hard to hear feedback.  So, it's probably a bit of that along the way but not just that.  And then four, the bit that really matters, "What's one small thing I could have a go at?" and then this is where you are starting small, keeping it simple and being really specific. When I went through this process, I was really trying to challenge myself to go, "What feels realistic; what feels relevant; what have I got really high levels of control over".  So I thought, "Oh, okay, well I could start each week by asking someone from our Amazing If team for some feedback".  So, first thing I do in a week, I'd probably, if I was going to be even more specific, I could say, "Start each week by asking someone for feedback over Teams", just using one feedback question.  I would know those questions, like I said, I would have the capability to know what to ask, and it could be about my strengths, it could be about my impact, it could be an even-better-if question.  But maybe just by getting into that routine of starting my week by asking for some feedback, I've done something, so I'm further forward than I was at the previous week; also, it probably raises feedback up in my mind in terms of, it's important, it makes it a priority, you create a bias towards, "Okay, I am trying to close this gap.  This is one action that's going to help me to do that".  I would probably have to put a reminder in my diary to make that happen otherwise I would just forget, especially on a Monday morning.  But that feels like something I've got high levels of confidence about my ability to actually do that, and I think that's a good stress test to have at the end of asking yourself those questions. Just do that stress test as if you were coaching yourself, "Out of 10, how confident do I feel about taking that action?" and here, I think we are looking for like a 9 or 10 out of 10, "and if any lower than that, can you make the action smaller?  Could it be even more straightforward?" because if it's anything below that, then you're just going to go back to having the gap again.

Helen Tupper: I was trying to think about this for mine.  So, what's my gap?  My gap is being able to focus on one thing at once.  What's my goal?  To make progress on some high-priority projects.  What's getting in the way?  Trying to do too many things in a day.  What's one small thing I could have a go at?  Block out one morning a week for high-priority projects.  I think actually, when you feel the frustration, you know we talked around what does this gap feel like, you're living with the gap quite a lot and it feels frustrating, and sometimes you just need a framework to think it through.  And you kind of go, "Oh, of course, that's what I need".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I know!

Helen Tupper: But when you're really frustrated, of course you just need to ask, make feedback the first thing you do in the day, of course you do.  But when you're really frustrated, I think it's really hard sometimes to see what you need to do differently.  And so, it might just seem like four very simple questions, but they are designed to go from something that feels difficult and frustrating and that you've probably been sitting with for quite a while, to something that is simple and doable today ideally, something you could act on straight away.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I guess that's also part of having this knowing-doing gap, is you probably know quite a lot, and that might make it hard to know where to start because you're like, "Well, I could do this, I could do that".  I don't think people will find it hard to know what they could do, but almost the problem is then we don't do any of those things.  So, actually by just going, it's one small thing that you can just start straightaway, actually we're being quite reductionist, aren't we, and being quite empathetic on ourselves to go, "This is not an easy gap to close".  So, having a go I think feels like a good mindset to have in mind. Next action is about getting a doing mentor.  So, this is someone who does the thing that you want to do, so they are already doing it, you can see that they are making that thing happen.  And this is not just about having a nice chat or just catching up with the person.  Essentially, what you are trying to do is unlock what it is that they have managed to do, their techniques, like tried and tested tools, how do they take action, so that then you can figure out, "Could any of that be useful for me?"  So essentially, I think here you are looking for someone who doesn't have that knowing-doing gap, there is no gap.  They've either closed the gap or they just didn't have it in the first place.  So, then you sort of go, "Well, what is it about their approach that I could make my approach?"

Helen Tupper: So, we've tried to create a bit of a script to get you started with how you could get some support from someone who does the thing that you might not do very well at the moment.  So, Sarah is going to be my example for this because she is very good at focusing on work and I often get easily distracted.  So, this is how I would frame it using this script.  So, "I admire your ability to focus on one thing at once.  I know that that matters, but I struggle to press pause on other people's priorities when I'm trying to work on one thing.  How would you approach that challenge?"  And so, just before Sarah comes in, the three points there are, "I admire your ability to…; I know it matters but I struggle to …; and, how would you approach that challenge?"  So, you're acknowledging that they've got this ability, you're also being a bit vulnerable that you find it difficult, but you're then asking them for help with their expertise.  So, that's what those three different questions are going to get at.  So, Sarah, my struggle is pressing pause on other people when I'm trying to do a bit of deep work.  So, if that was you, how would you approach that challenge?

Sarah Ellis: So, I think the first thing I would say to you is, "You should recognise that that struggle comes from a really good place of wanting to be supportive, wanting to be helpful and responsive, and those are all really, really good skills".  I would also probably say to you, "Oh, that's interesting, I thought maybe you'd be struggling with distractions that come from tech or notifications", so that's why it's really important I think that you're sharing your struggle with me, rather than me second-guessing or assuming why you find it hard to focus on one thing at once, because otherwise the advice or the suggestions that I would give you might not help to address your struggle.  So, I'm going, "Okay, well, that's interesting.  So, it's not tech that's your distraction downfall, it's actually other people, pressing pause on other people". If we were genuinely having this conversation, I think I'd say, "Okay, well that's not directly a challenge for me.  I think I find that okay, I find it okay to basically, I suppose, what we're saying is leave people waiting, or not getting back to people immediately".  And then very practically, I think I'd probably say to you, "Well, look, given that that is part of your DNA and this is going to feel quite different to what you do at the moment, maybe what you could do is block out some time for your focus work that you really want to do, but know that straight after that, you've got in your diary what I would label as a responsiveness hour.  So essentially, you know that almost the payoff from not multitasking, focusing on one thing at once, is then straight after that you're going to get the chance to go back to people, respond to things quickly.  You know it's coming and also you know it's coming really soon.  So, it's not like I'm saying to you, "You've got to wait two days for that".  Essentially, I'm asking you to press pause on other people for just these two hours, but also knowing that straight after those two hours, you've then got the chance to make sure everyone's got what they need.  And I'd probably ask you, "Well, how realistic does that feel for you in your week?"

Helen Tupper: So, my reflections on what Sarah has shared is, I quite like the idea of having a rapid-response hour, that really appeals to me.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah, that sounds exactly like you.  I actually don't know why you don't already do that.  You are a rapid-response person.

Helen Tupper: Well, I'd probably do it all day, but I think actually doing it now is probably more effective.  But also, just when I was asking Sarah those questions, it made me think that it's a much easier way of asking for help.  So, if I just said to Sarah, "Oh, I'm really struggling with deep work, can you help me?" that's quite hard for me to say and it's maybe a little bit vague, whereas using that script, "I admire; I struggle to; how would you approach that challenge?" it gives you an easier way to ask for the help.  By the way, we'll put all those statements in the PodSheet so that you can see those really easily, but just to say I found that a lot easier than just saying, "I'm struggling, can you help me?"  It's an easier way into that conversation, I think.

Sarah Ellis: I also think it makes sure that you get the help that is useful for you, because we tested these ideas, that may or may not be believable listening to the podcast, but we tested all these ideas beforehand.  And interestingly, the first time we tested it, I ended up trying to help Helen with some -- I was like, "Oh, maybe it's all of Helen's notifications and all of her tech that's the problem".  But then, when Helen really thought about it, she was like, "That's actually not the issue".  So, I could have easily helped Helen with the wrong thing if she hadn't signalled to me what was the thing that she was struggling with.  And then actually, as a result, you get to a much, much better place.  So, I can be more useful in terms of the help that I'm giving, and then Helen gets something that's much more helpful in terms of what she practically can then go away and do.

Our last action is to have a doing dress rehearsal.  So, I think these knowing-doing gaps are hard to close and I just like the idea of picking, maybe you pick a day, maybe you pick a week, I think it depends what your gap is, and you just think, "I'm just going to try it out just for this day, just for this hour, just for this week", and you're not too attached to the outcome.  And we've not talked about it loads today but here, when you're doing something new or that you've not done for a long time, the likelihood is you're not going to be that good at it.  And so, one of the stumbling blocks here could be that you try something, like let's say I was like, "Oh, I asked for feedback on a Monday from someone", this wouldn't happen in Amazing If, but let's say in somewhere else I've worked, and let's say you don't get anything in return, that person doesn't give you the feedback.  And so, it knocks your confidence quite quickly, and then you revert straight back to that knowing-doing gap. 

So, you try to do something about it, but perhaps it didn't go that well.  Or, let's say Helen tried to do that focus time with the rapid response, but the first time she did the focus time, maybe she got two hours, and actually she was like, "Oh, it only lasted an hour.  I feel like I failed.  I feel like I couldn't even do that".  And then, we get into quite an unhelpful cycle of, "I'm just not good at that", back to kind of fix mindset. Whereas, I think if you have this idea of a dress rehearsal, we just know this idea of dress rehearsal is like a practice. 

It's a practice where things will go wrong, we make adjustments after a dress rehearsal before the sort of main performance, and you adjust accordingly.  And so, let's say Helen did try to do that two hours, and she figured out, "Actually, do you know what?  Initially, that's too long.  I'm now going to try an hour, I'm going to try 45 minutes", but we don't feel like we failed.  And so, I think just this idea of, if you just picked a moment to be like, "I'm having a bit of a doing dress rehearsal", I think you give yourself a lot of permission to practise, to have a play, to lower your expectations of yourself, which I think all those things are quite helpful here because we are doing something that is hard and probably something you've not done that recently.

Helen Tupper: So, just to summarise the different things that we've covered and, as I said, these will go in the PodSheet, which you can download and work it all through, we started with a bit of self-awareness, so we've got that Behavior Change Model and then also, understanding your tendency. 

So, that's I think how you can design the doing so it works for you, understanding your motivation and your ability.  The second thing we started talking about was much more around actions.  We've got gaps in giving it a go, getting a doing mentor, doing a dress rehearsal.  So, all the questions and the prompts that we put together, we'll put in the PodSheet.  You can get that on the show notes on Apple, or if you just go to amazingif.com and you go to the podcast page, you'll be able to see all the episodes there and you can download it.  And if you want to dive in a bit deeper, you can also join us at PodPlus.  That happens every Thursday morning at 9:00am and it's a free 30-minute session where we can do some doing design together to help you take action.

Sarah Ellis: But that's everything for this week, thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone!