Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:04:04: 5 coach-yourself questions…

00:04:17: … 1: use more of your strengths
00:05:05: … 2: try something for the first time
00:07:34: … 3: talk to someone in the same role
00:08:40: … 4: achieve an ambitious goal
00:11:31: … 5: most beneficial use of your skills
00:14:26: 3 ideas for action…
00:14:42: … 1: spot a problem and pitch an idea
00:19:47: …. 2: grow together
00:23:27: … 3: mutual work wins
00:30:04: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. 

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we take a different topic to do with work, and we try to share some ideas and tools that we hope will help you, and it always continues to help us, navigate your Squiggly Career with that little bit more confidence, clarity and control. 

Helen Tupper: And we should say Happy New Year to everybody! 

Sarah Ellis: We should say Happy 2024! 

Helen Tupper: Do you think there's people listening to this for the first time because their new year's resolution is, "I'm going to listen podcast or invest in my development"?

Sarah Ellis: Or both.

Helen Tupper: I mean both.  Yeah, that's probably why they're listening to this.  But welcome; if you are new to the world of Squiggly Careers, welcome.  So, we have about 370 episodes for you to catch up on!

Sarah Ellis: Happy 2024.  I feel like that is a really positive thing, like we should be really proud of that.  But whenever we say it, I'm like, that just seems overwhelming. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, it does.  You can use the search functionality on our website to look for topics.  I mean, I wouldn't!  That's a kind of objective for us this year to kind of improve that. 

Sarah Ellis: It doesn't work that well. 

Helen Tupper: It just comes up with a lot.  So, it's a bit of a filter, but probably not the most effective.  If you are thinking, "Oh, where do I start?" maybe send us a message either on LinkedIn, we've got an @amazingif page on LinkedIn; or on Instagram, or just email us, helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  And if you give us the, "Oh, I'm looking for some help in…", we can give you a little sort of Squiggly Career playlist to get you started.  And before we get into the topic for today's episode, Sarah and I are recording together in lovely London, which is slightly noisy today.  There is somebody doing some renovation right now, drilling in the background.  So if you can hear that, we apologise, but we're just trying to keep it real.  We don't do stuff in fancy studios!  We kind of bring our microphones wherever we go and try and record when we can.  Apologies for the noise if you can hear any. 

Sarah Ellis: So today, we're going to be talking about how to grow your role, and in some ways, this is a little bit sort of anti-New Year, new you.  I think you get to January and there's loads of articles and people talking about whether it's career change or new job, and I think sometimes it creates an unrealistic pressure on thinking, "I need to do more or do something different".  But I think for the majority of us realistically, we're going to keep doing the same job.  And that isn't to sound demotivating or to be like, "Okay, well just more of the same".  I think actually thinking about, "Okay well I'm going to be in this role probably for this year, more likely than not, how do I actually make the most of it? And one of my favourite bits of career advice is, never live the same year twice.  And so, even though I think you can do the same role on paper, or certainly if you just looked at the title, and we always say you want to think more about talents than titles, you can always be thinking about, "Well, how do I grow?  How do I progress?  How do I make sure that I am fit for both, doing a brilliant job today, but also fit for the future?" 

So, we just thought it was probably a very pragmatic and practical take to start the new year.  Everybody else is offering all these shiny promises; we're like, "No, we're just going to help you be better at your job today".  Let's just be a bit squiggly and sensible about all this. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah!

Sarah Ellis: And the good news is that we're not saying you can't look for a new role, but I think this does give you a bit more control, because as soon as you kind of go, "Oh, moving is the best thing for me to do for my development", you suddenly introduce a dependency, which is there has to be a new opportunity for you to move into, and that can feel quite frustrating if you can't see it.  Whereas what we're saying is, at the very least, try to grow your role, so that in the job that you're in today, you will have new experiences, and you'll stretch your strengths a new way, and you'll learn more.  And worst-case scenario, you don't see this other thing you'd like to do; that's not a bad outcome from the work that you're doing on a day-to-day basis. 

Helen Tupper: And it sort of makes sense if you connect the dots.  If you do a really brilliant job of your day job, if you do want to progress into a different role, if you do want to transfer your talents, that's also much more likely to happen.  So, I do feel like you win in every way here, and it's easy actually to get distracted by, "I want a new job [or] I want a promotion [or] I want to move into a manager role".  But it's just, I think, always important not to forget where you are in the here and now. 

Sarah Ellis: So, we thought we'd start with five coach-yourself questions, which Helen and I will chat through a little bit as well, in terms of what they mean for us, just to get you thinking about the year ahead, and then we've got three ideas for action about how to grow your role.  So, coach-yourself question number one, what strengths would you like to use more in the job that you do today?  Helen, talk to me.

Helen Tupper: Oh, what strengths would I like to ...  Well, we often talk about my prototyping strength.  I would like a little bit more -- it's sort of headspace and diary space.  It's play space.  I feel like I'm good at prototyping when I've got time to play and it creates new tools for us.  So, I'd quite like to have some play days, that would be fun. 

Sarah Ellis: And I see that you're very good at that.  And it also adds a lot of value to other people but to us as a whole when you have the space to do that.  It's almost interesting, isn't it?  When you're not doing it, it's almost a bit of a red flag for, "Can I be at my best if I'm not…?", like what does that look like for you?  And prototyping is definitely one of those. 

So, coach-yourself question number two, what could I try for the first time?  So, this is about being a beginner.  I actually heard this described recently as sort of an amateur mindset, and actually how helpful it is to come at things with fresh eyes, to be doing things that you've not done before, but to not feel like you've got to change roles to make this happen.  So, Helen, what do you want to try for the first time in 2024? 

Helen Tupper: It's probably some things in our sessions.  So, a lot of the time for Sarah and I is spent working with companies delivering career development programmes, which we absolutely love, but I would like to probably experiment a little bit with how we deliver some of those, whether that's bringing some sort of AI into it or whether it's bringing -- I just think there's some really interesting tech that could make our sessions even more interactive.  And there's some things that we're already talking about, about how we can link live learning to things that people can refer back to.  And so, I'd just like to play with some of that with a very low pressure of it actually working.  Play seems to be a theme for me. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, interesting. 

Helen Tupper: What would you like to try for the first time? 

Sarah Ellis: Actually I was thinking about, you know where you've tried and failed before?  So, I was also thinking about the workshops that we do because that is where we spend lots of our time.  And I like the idea of integrating music, movement and drawing, and mind maps, to have three M's: music, movement and mind maps, because I intuitively and instinctively know that each of those things work in terms of making learning last, and kind of creating energy, and they get our brains all kind of sparky and connecting.  And I've dabbled with them, but never intentionally enough.  Funnily enough, at one point, I did try to put some music into a session, and then realised I'd gone on mute so that I was quiet for everybody else.  But obviously, that then meant they couldn't hear the music, so I was like, "How was the music?" and they were like, "But you're on mute", I was like, "All right yeah", really embarrassing!  Because I was like, "I'm going to play some music".

Helen Tupper: This revolutionary thing!

Sarah Ellis: And you know you always just have that a bit of a fear of when you know something works well as it is, it always feels quite hard to change it up. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah.

Sarah Ellis: So, I think we've talked before about safe testing, you know, start with a trusted group of people.  So, it's interesting that we both kind of went to the same place, but probably maybe we should combine our different thoughts. 

Helen Tupper: We probably should, or our workshops are going to look really, really random.  If you go to Sarah's, you're going to be dancing and drawing; and if you go to mine, I'm just going to be throwing loads of tech at you to do! 

Sarah Ellis: So, question three, who could I talk to who does the same role as me but in a different company?  And the reason we think this will help you to grow your role is, firstly, when you talk to someone in a different industry that's doing something similar-ish, it doesn't need to be the exact same job title, I think you spot opportunities to do things that perhaps you hadn't considered or they are approaching things in a new way, so you can essentially borrow some brilliance.  I mean, there's an extra upside I think when you do this, you always get a bit of empathy because funnily enough, you could be working in the charity sector and in a bank and you start talking about your role, and you realise you perhaps have more in common than you thought you would have.  And so, that can just feel quite reassuring.  But in terms of actually growing your role, I think I've spent a bit more time last year talking to people who run their own companies, and that wasn't something I'd done before.  So, doing a similar role, probably founders who run their own company, and you do start to spot opportunities to grow yourself, to grow how you're spending your time, and they just give you I think a different lens on what growth could look like for you. 

Helen Tupper: So, our fourth question is, what would be an ambitious goal to achieve in my role?  I found this one quite an interesting one, quite like I was trying to twist my head around, what would I think would be really useful to do but probably would take a bit of effort to make it happen?  I think that's the thing, it's got to be valuable for your company, but then something that's maybe too hard to do today.  And I was thinking something, you know, we've talked before about spending more time in companies almost on a secondment basis. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: I was thinking, I'd love to do some kind of a Squiggly Career safari but within other companies, so like I've got six days that I could spend in other companies just getting a little bit closer to what are some of the challenges culturally from a career perspective, like do a bit of kind of listening in a company and learning.  I think that feels quite ambitious because I don't know many people that do that kind of thing, I don't know many companies that let you in as well for that.  But I think it could be really, really valuable for learning and sort of using that learning to evolve how we help.  That's mine, what would yours be? 

Sarah Ellis: Mine was sort of similar around safaris, but I was actually physically thinking about going to a different country. 

Helen Tupper: Oh, a country?  I'm going to a company, you're going to a country!

Sarah Ellis: I was going to a country, you're going to a company.  So, I was thinking a lot of how we are growing is less about the country that we both live in, and it's more about people who are interested in developing their careers.  And I think spending time in different countries with different cultures and sort of being on the ground, I think you do get a different feel for what matters, what's important, probably some nuances that you couldn't anticipate.  I saw an email that we had where someone said about a workshop that people were interested in, in New Zealand.  And I think we might intuitively go, "Well, no, we could do that virtually because it'd be more efficient", and you can't help but kind of have that productivity mindset some of the time. 

Whereas actually I was thinking, maybe we need to sort of say yes to some of those things, even though they might be less efficient and more time consuming, because I think you get added value from other conversations and people.  And I did it a little bit last year, not very much, but I do really remember, I mean I didn't go very far, I went to Geneva which is like an hour, but the culture of that company was very different, I would say, to some British companies.  The people that I was spending time with asked me very different questions and I was like, "Okay, this is just interesting and insightful".  And to your point about being useful, I felt like I could then be more universally useful because I'd spent time there.  And so I think, yeah, mine was more about actually going to different places. 

Helen Tupper: We should have like a mutual objective next year with Squiggly Career Safaris, both of us.  I feel like we could hold each other accountable for it.  Coach-yourself question number five, what are my company's priorities and problems where my skills would be most useful?  The point of this one, Sarah and I were talking, like how would we grow our roles, what would we do?  And we realised that Sarah and my approach is slightly different.  And my immediate one was like, "I would map the organisation, the different departments". 

Sarah Ellis: You were doing lots of matrices, weren't you? 

Helen Tupper: Obviously matrices and maps always.  I'd be like, what are all the different functions; who are the priority people; what are their problems; and how can I help?  Because I think I'm quite strategic about how relationships and opportunities can help me to grow a role.  But that's exactly what I do.  I'd literally get a pen and paper, I'd put me, my team, my department in the middle, I would put all the functions in the team, in the organisation that I worked in, round that in a circle, and then I would, for each of those functions, I'd be like, what's their priority this year; what is their biggest problem; and I would try to draw a line between me and them in terms of how could I help, and then I'd just work out which one to go after first.  And that would help me to grow my role, it would help me to grow my impact, it would help me to grow my influence, so that would be potentially useful.  If you're a strategic relationship builder like me, it might be a good one to think about. 

Sarah Ellis: And I would say, I've seen a few people that I've worked for take the approach that Helen described, and it is very effective in growing your role, because essentially what you're doing is you're not starting with you, you're starting elsewhere, and I think that's a really smart thing to do.  I think sometimes when you're talking about, "Grow my role", you get quite, "Me and my role".

Helen Tupper: "What do I want to do?" yeah.

Sarah Ellis: And I think sometimes I would be more like that, I would kind of start with like --

Helen Tupper: "What would I enjoy?"

Sarah Ellis: -- what would I enjoy?  And I think because my strengths are quite spiky and quite specific, I do sort of start with myself and go from there.  And that's not necessarily wrong, but I think this is a different way of looking at it.  And also, your organisation will really value that.  And someone once said to me, you should always run to the hard stuff that your organisation is grappling with, because that's the stuff that really matters to them, that's really what's on their mind.  And so it's funny, you could argue I think growing your role is starting with, well, how do you grow your organisation; how do you grow your team; and then think about, "Okay, well how could that help me grow too?"  And it's a slightly different way around of approaching the problem, I think. 

Helen Tupper: And hopefully you'll have heard, just by Sarah and I talking these things through, you can do coach-yourself questions on your own, they're just really useful for reflection.  But I actually think they're even better if, like in conversation.  And it's not about having the right answer or the perfect one, it's just about using the questions as a bit of a prompt for your thinking, and you'll have heard Sarah and I do it.  I got to some new insights with Sarah than I probably would have done on my own.  We'll put those questions, by the way, in the PodSheet, which will be on our website, amazingif.com, if you want to have a look at those afterwards and spend some time thinking about them.

So, now we've got three ideas for action which help you kind of move from the reflection part that we just talked about, to doing something different with your development so you actually grow your role.  And these are all tried and tested by Sarah and me, so we've got some stories to bring them to life for you.  So, idea for action number one is a bit of a build on that last coach-yourself question.  It is to spot a problem and pitch an idea.  This is different to spotting a problem and solving the problem; let's explain why. 

So, we've talked about spotting a problem.  If you can spot problems that other people run away from and that you put yourself forward for, that almost gives you a sort of position of power, because you're helping people and people like helping people.  So, spot a problem in your organisation.  Now, this could be maybe in your department, it could be outside of your department, but something that's not working as well as it should be.  Rather than just solving that problem and saying, "Right, I'm going to go do this", pitch the idea.  So, "One way we could approach this is…", or, "Here are three ways that I think we could address this issue that I've seen". 

The reason you want to pitch an idea and not the solution is because it's a much better way to involve people.  So, if I say to Sarah, "Oh, Sarah, I've spotted a problem.  The podcast isn't growing enough out of the UK.  What I think we should get on with is this..." then I'm basically telling Sarah what we should do.  And she might be like, "Well, I've actually got some ideas, and I'd like to talk about them a little bit more", and she's not bought into solving it with me.  Whereas, if I share the problem I spotted with Sarah, some potential ideas, some things that I've seen other people do, and I ask for her perspective, that's a much better way to involve her, to create commitment, to create buy-in, so we're solving it together.  And outside examples really help here as well.  So, if you're pitching an idea, bringing some insight from outside your organisation, "I've seen this person has done this [or] this company tried this", is a good way to not make this just sort of Helen's opinion, but a bit more objective. 

I've done this a few times.  I used to work for BP, and when I was in BP, I worked in like the B2B marketing area at BP.  One of the things that I noticed that other organisations did is they had a more robust customer insight team and we didn't.  We had a lot of opinions about what should be done, but not a lot of insight that was based on the customers.  I spotted that problem and it meant that it's very opinion-based decisions rather than objective-based decisions.  And so, I pitched this idea of having this sort of customer insight, thought leadership team based on what I'd seen from other companies, and I talked it through with the director at the time; not me saying, "This is what I definitely think we should do", but, "This is one approach that we could consider that might help us to solve this problem".  And it meant that my director was much more involved in that, they felt it was their idea too, and ultimately, we kind of changed the way the team was structured as a result of that. 

I did exactly the same thing at Virgin.  I spotted a problem with the commercials of a business that I was part of, pitched an idea for what could be better, got a lot of people involved in that, so it definitely wasn't my brand-new thing.  It was something that other people were very involved in and would identify with as being sort of their solution.  And again, as a result, we changed how the team was structured, and my role grew in both of those.  I ended up with new positions actually that were bigger and better as a result of spotting a problem and pitching an idea that other people were involved in solving. 

Sarah Ellis: And the one thing we thought it's worth flagging here, this is something that takes time.  So, we're going to talk about a few different ideas, but this is one where it very rarely happens overnight or next week.  You spot a problem and you're talking about ideas, you're involving other people, so just beware the sort of shiny idea that you're going to lose interest in.  So, you know when you're like, "Oh, this might feel like something that feels quite interesting for now", I think you've got to be prepared to sort of almost be called on it and be like, "Oh, okay, so how would you do this, or how are you going to make this happen?" because you initiated it.  So, you definitely want to make sure it's something that you feel like you can stay committed to, or like we say, it's not necessarily all got to be you, but also knowing that you're like, firstly, both Helen's examples, she did grow her role, it did work out. 

I can also definitely think of examples of taking this approach, and sometimes it doesn't work out.  But actually, I think even the process, you grow your role through the process.  So, you know letting go of the answer equals growing your role; it's like, well actually, just even learning to pitch an idea, how to involve other people, you'll increase your influence, you'll increase your impact.  It might change the way you'd imagined, it might be something completely different.  It might say the same, but I rarely think you lose as a result of doing this. 

Helen Tupper: I always think when I do it, I'm trying to catch energy.  So, I will spot the problem, I'll pitch the idea and what I'm looking for is someone to be like, "Yeah, that's a great idea, let's talk about that more".  And so, I can let an idea go quite quickly if I don't catch energy from other people. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, you could actually, I see that. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, well because to your point, it's too hard to do this on your own.  You need other people to want to be involved in order to keep it going.  And so, yeah, I think we're all attracted to shiny things and you'll see stuff in other companies that you think is really cool.  But I think my top tip is when you're pitching the idea, try to catch the energy and it will help with the commitment bit. 

Sarah Ellis: So, idea for action number two is growing together.  So, again, I think we talked about you can be a bit too single-minded when you're potentially trying to grow your role and you just look at, "Me and my role".  I think it's a really good question to ask yourself, who else might want to grow their role in either a similar way to you, so you could sort of grow together on the same thing, or who could you maybe work with to grow who's got complementary or distinctively different skills or strengths.  So again, you'd sort of end up being better together, you're better because of this. 

So, Helen and I were thinking, well, we definitely grew ourselves when we started working together back in 2013, in the heady days of 2013, when we first started Amazing If, and that was us coming together with different strengths, but definitely some same beliefs and values about what we were trying to do.

Helen Tupper: It was so geeky.  I just never forget, we used to spend our weekends together, mapping things out. 

Sarah Ellis: It's probably at that point where you know you're at least doing something you enjoy, when you're choosing to do it at your weekend. 

Helen Tupper: I'm somebody who has just got that same passion for things.  I think most people wouldn't consider Post-it notes on walls and ideas at the weekend their idea of fun, but we were like, "This is great!" 

Sarah Ellis: I mean we still message each other now going, "I wish we could do that".  It's just we have other commitments now. 

Helen Tupper: Children!

Sarah Ellis: Basically, yeah!  And partners!  But you know, we had partners then, we had the same partners. 

Helen Tupper: It made no difference, it's the children! 

Sarah Ellis: That's true, it's all their fault.  And I think we were both reflecting on, we grew as individuals through that process, but I also think I was better in my day job because I was doing that, because I was stretching my strengths in new situations.  I was creating new connections and networks that were then actually useful back in my job.  So, it doesn't always have to be in your organisation.  But I can also think of an example of where, I wasn't working in career development, I was working probably in content or marketing strategy at the time, but I had a friend in that function who was also really interested in development.  And so we were like, "Oh, how could we support marketing as a function with everybody's development?"  And we just started really small and we actually got some really good advice to start small, from our director who we both worked with.  And she was like, "Okay, you're quite different but you've both got this passion for development.  Just start small, show up, come up with some ideas, get started essentially.  So, don't kind of overthink it or overdesign it". 

We both definitely grew our roles from working together.  You're consistent, you also show up for each other.  I think you end up with a bit of an accountability partner for growth, because I was sort of growing with her, but also, I didn't want to not do the thing I'd said I was going to do.  And it was also such an enjoyable thing, because you have something that's just, you look forward to, you use your brain in a different way, but our beware or kind of watchout is that it doesn't distract you from your day job, depending on what it is.  Because I think I definitely fell into this trap sometimes, probably because I enjoyed some of this stuff more than my day job, and you just have to figure out if this is how you're going to grow with someone else.  If it can be part of your day job, I would say even better.  But all the examples I could think of, they were sort of often at the periphery of my day job.  I certainly think they made me better at my day job, but there was always a bit of a risk for me in terms of what you're prioritising.  Just check you're not losing focus on what you really need to deliver to be amazing at your job. 

Helen Tupper: And our third idea for action is that mutual work win.  So, we were trying to think about when you're growing your role, one of the ways that you can do that is by taking on additional responsibility.  And that could be from your manager, it's kind of an obvious person to take on additional responsibility, or it could be from a colleague.  There could be something that a colleague's doing that you could spend some time on that could help you to kind of stretch and grow your role.  But we were thinking that if I just said to Sarah, for example, "Oh, that thing that you're doing, I'd like to do it now", Sarah might be like, "I'm not sure, I'm not sure I could just give you that".  Or if I just said to Sarah, "Oh, what could I do that would help you?"  Sarah would be like, "Oh, I'm not sure, because sometimes it's a bit complicated". 

Sarah Ellis: We tried this, didn't we, on each other?  And we were like, if you just said that, it's quite hard to unpick sometimes like, "Well, what would be helpful?" 

Helen Tupper: Yeah, "How can I decouple things that I do to give some to you?"  That feels like, I don't know, I can't just give you finance because I do these things, or whatever it is.  It's kind of hard to suddenly come up on the spot with something that you do that could help someone else's development.  So, we thought a better way to grow your role through taking on additional responsibility would be to first get closer to what someone does.  So, shadow someone who you think might have the potential to grow your role.  So, for example, I could say, "Oh, Sarah, I'm really interested in learning a bit more about the work that you're doing on brand", for example, "The next couple of meetings that you're in where you're talking about that, could I just kind of listen and learn?"  And as a result of kind of that listening and learning, you don't even have to use the word "shadowing" if you feel like that's a bit formal, you could just say, "I'd like to listen and learn a little bit more about what you're doing in that area, can I join a few meetings?" you're basically observing, that's what you're doing.

In that process of listening and observing, what you're doing is spotting opportunities for, "Maybe if I took that bit on from Sarah then I could (a) save her time, so she's not having to do that thing, and (b) it would help me to kind of grow my role too.  I'd be doing something different, I'd be using my strengths in a different way".  So then, when I kind of explain that to Sarah, I'm not just saying, "I want to do that thing that you do".  What I'm saying is, "Having seen how you're doing your work, I think one way I could help you is if I took that bit away.  It would be a great opportunity for me to stretch my strengths but it would give you that time back, so you could do X, Y and Z instead".  So, you're creating a mutual work win but in order to do that credibly, you're probably going to have to get closer to the work that someone's doing. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I really like this example because I feel like it's a very practical one that we can probably all do, because we're not talking here about revolutionising your role or massively transforming it, you're probably talking about doing one specific thing that you don't do today, but that is going to help you grow.  So, that's I think the filter when you're looking at this is going, "Right, well, what's going to help me grow?  Is it spending time with different parts of my company; is it spending time on a different type of project; is it spending time developing people in our team, and I don't do that today?"  You're very clear about the, "Well, how is this going to help me grow?" you can see that.  But I think to be able to answer that question, that's where you sort of need the closeness, because you're either like, "Oh, it's going to develop a skill that I want to make stronger.  It's just going to give me access to something that I don't get today". 

As Helen said, we think there's definitely the watchout around the unhelpful offer of help, the like, "How can I help?"  And you're like, "Oh, that's quite tricky", so watch out for that.  The other watchout here that we did want to mention is kind of, it's always in quote marks in my head whenever I think about this is, "Oh, this is a development opportunity".  Now, we talk a lot about development being a really good thing, but there is a difference I think between, this is a mutual work win where we go, "Everyone feels really good about this, it works for everybody" versus, "I'm now just doing a job that it has more responsibilities that I'm not getting paid for", and I think that's something different.  That often means much more time in those areas, almost like your whole job has grown almost simultaneously.  You've gone from doing one thing, kind of situation A, and it's now actually you're doing something so different. 

Helen Tupper: Can I counter to this? 

Sarah Ellis: Go on.  You want to be careful! 

Helen Tupper: I know.  I would caution, this could be a good debate everybody, because this is basically the territory of stretch roles, which I've done in a company, which is exactly what Sarah's saying.  You're basically doing a job that's bigger than the one that you're being paid for, essentially, and how long you do that for can, I think, become an issue if you're not paid for the work that you're doing.  However, I think I, strategic Helen, would probably say, I'm going to grow my role so that it is fundamentally bigger, and then I'm going to pitch for more pay.  So, I think I would use this as a way to argue my case for a higher salary.  I might be like, I'll pitch for more responsibility, I will do a good job there, so then that becomes a fundamental part of my role.  And then having that is now an ongoing part of my job, I would then say, "Well, my role over the last 6 to 12 months, my responsibilities now include X, Y and Z and as a result, I'd like that to be reflected in my pay".  I would probably use it strategically to ask for more money. 

Sarah Ellis: Yes.  I think I've just heard a lot of examples of people doing way more work than they are paid for. 

Helen Tupper: I think it's where the direction of control is over this.  So, if you're feeling put on, "Oh, Sarah can you just… could you just…" and suddenly you're like, "Oh my God, I'm doing everybody's work and I'm not being paid for any of it". 

Sarah Ellis: Or maybe you're promised, you know the whole like --

Helen Tupper: Breadcrumbing and -- 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  I think it depends how, like you said, how intentional it is, but also how explicit it is.  And you've also talked there about that about time bound.  So, I go, well okay, if you've had a very open conversation with your manager that says, "I am doing a bigger job, at the moment I'm not getting paid for it, this is what it looks like, this is how long that feels okay for.  And do you know what, at this moment, basically this is not sustainable forever".  And I think if you have opted into that, and actually to be honest, the thing I always say to people on this is like, "And it's written down", I think often those things don't get written down and then things change and then you end up feeling like you're quite helpless and loss of control and you've probably given a lot, but then it's the give-gain, isn't it?  I think people often feel like they give a lot for a long time.  So, I'm just always very aware of like, I don't know, people I suppose being rewarded for what they have given. 

Helen Tupper: Yeah.  Intentional, explicit and timebound, I think, are kind of good flags. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I feel like now we're on another podcast! 

Helen Tupper: What you've basically heard is how mine and Sarah's brains sort of work differently.  I'm like, "Oh, I do this", Sarah's like, "Oh, I don't know, bit of a watchout there", and then there's some kind of insight at the end of it!  So, hopefully that was a little helpful tangent.  So, we have covered three main ideas for action: spot a problem, pitch an idea; try to grow together; and find the mutual work wins.  We will summarise the how behind those ideas in the PodSheet, but we hope that has been helpful and we hope you're up for growing your role this year.  Let us know how you get on.  You can email us, we love updates on how people are putting all this stuff into action; so, you can email us, just give us a bit of insight into your Squiggly Career story.  It's just helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: And if you've got any topics you'd like us to cover or guests that you would particularly like to hear from, let us know as well because we always read all of those, and it just helps us to make sure we're being as useful for you as we possibly can.  But that's all for this week and for the start of 2024.  We'll be back next week.  Thanks again for listening and bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye, everyone.