Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:26: The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, by Patrick Lencioni

00:04:14: What makes a high-performing team

00:05:41: The five team dysfunctions…

00:06:00: … 1: absence of trust

00:10:45: Idea for action - the five-minute phone call

00:13:38: … 2: fear of conflict

00:17:59: Idea for action - name the knots

00:20:52: … 3: lack of commitment

00:22:47: Idea for action - connect to-do lists with the whys

00:25:03: … 4: avoidance of accountability

00:27:56: Idea for action - design rewards based on team performance

00:29:30: … 5: inattention to results

00:30:54: Idea for action - fast flagging and team follow-up

00:35:20: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, a weekly podcast where Sarah and I talk about the ins, outs, ups and downs of work and try to give you some tools, ideas, action, and maybe just a bit of confidence and clarity so that you can navigate all that squiggly stuff with a little bit more control in terms of your career.  And if it's the first time that you have listened to the podcast, we make sure that you can take all the listening and do lots with it, and so we create lots of things to go alongside the podcast. 

We've got our PodSheets, which are a one-page summary of what we're going to talk about today; we've got our PodNotes which you'll often see @amazingif on Instagram or LinkedIn, which are sort of short, swipable summaries; and then we've also got PodPlus which happens almost every Thursday at 9.00am UK time, which is where a community of like-minded learners come together to dive a bit deeper into what we're talking about in the episode. So, if any of that sounds interesting to you, you can find all the links for it in the show notes or on our website @amazingif.com or just email us, where we're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Sarah Ellis: And so, in today's podcast, we're going to be talking about high-performing teams.  And this is definitely a hot topic at the moment, albeit I feel like it's been around for a long time.  There are lots of articles and books and things that you can read on high-performing teams.  But I think often these things are cyclical, a bit like fashion.  There are things in career development that come back and people want to spend time talking about, and we've just noticed at the moment that quite a few of the learning partners that we work with are asking about high-performing teams, it's something that we've been thinking about, and Helen remembered, and then one of my friends also went through something similar in terms of some learning they did, which is very much inspired by somebody called Patrick Lencioni. 

He wrote a book called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team back in 2002.  And you can watch the videos, read some articles from him and people talking about his work that we will put in the show notes, and it's worth spending some time with. So actually, it was new to me.  And one of the things I really liked about diving deeper into his work is that you do a lot of nodding. 

So, when he describes these five dysfunctions, you're sort of thinking back to maybe the teams that have perhaps been lower-performing teams that you might have been part of and you're sort of thinking, "Yes, that happened".  I know they seem simple, but often it's the simple things that feel really useful.  So, what we've done today is we're going to talk a bit about these five dysfunctions, and perhaps as you'll be listening, you'll be thinking, "Well, which one of those might be getting in our way at the moment?"  And then the thing that we've done is thought about ideas for action and tools, and actually some questions that you could ask as a team, if you've got that ambition to become a high-performing team.

Helen Tupper: And as Sarah said, how to work better in teams has been around as a topic for quite a long time.  But I think in a Squiggly Career, it becomes even more important.  I think our teams are kind of becoming more agile.  When I think about when I started my career, you were in one team for quite a long time.  Whereas now, I feel like you have project teams, you're moving around roles more frequently, you might be moving around organisations more frequently, so you're probably part of quite a few different teams and the team structures are quite dynamic, like people are coming in and out of them all the time.  So, the better we become at working effectively in teams and understanding what makes it functional and dysfunctional, I think the more effective that we can be. So, I just think in Squiggly Careers, it just becomes even more important that we have this ability to manage how we show up and how we work with different people in teams.

Sarah Ellis: And I do think reflecting on the highest-performing teams that I think I've been part of, they are the ones where you learn the most.  And I know we've talked before about, you know, you learn from mistakes and from failures and when things go wrong.  But when you are in a really sort of stretchy team, where it feels like there's this real ambition to perform really well and I think everybody grows individually and together, I think there's a lot of good stuff to be gained from trying out some of these ideas for action and thinking really specifically about what this might look like in your context, whether you're part of a team of two or team of three, or perhaps you're part of a team of 300.

Helen Tupper: I'm sure we will share our experiences of the goods and the bads anonymously along the way in this episode, but when I do reflect on the highest-performing teams that I've been in they weren't always the easiest teams.

Sarah Ellis: No.  I think that high performing doesn't always mean it's fun every day and it's easy in every moment.  I think sometimes, part of what makes that a high-performing team is because it does come with a lot of challenge and a lot of learning in the moment.  And you can sort of realise that in hindsight!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: We'll try to make it as good as possible in a moment for you.

Sarah Ellis: I feel like we're saying that with definite nervous laughter!  One of the things, I was actually reading Patrick Lencioni's book, so I was reading about these dysfunctions, and one of the things that he described that just really made me smile, and I was like, it really reassured me, is that in these high-performing teams, people definitely share when they get a bit stressed or they might get a bit sweary.  And I was like, "Oh, that's what happens to Helen and I".

Helen Tupper: That is true, we do get really sweary!

Sarah Ellis: We do!  We would never swear on the podcast.  I mean, I would never, I just don't think we would, partly because my mum listens.  I was like, "Oh, does that mean that you're not a high-performing team if you get a bit antsy or a bit agitated?"  But to your point, he says, you always see that in high-performing teams because actually there's high care and there's high challenge.  And so at moments, it does feel difficult knowing that that's okay.  So, I was taking that as it's all right that there's sometimes, not to other people, but you and I get a bit sweary to each other.

Helen Tupper: Also, I was just thinking about whether there's a sixth element of the five dysfunctions of a team, which is to think about having two co-founders who don't always agree with each other.  Can you imagine, that might be in the next edition of the book?

Sarah Ellis: Maybe we'll end up as a case study when we have a massive falling out!

Helen Tupper: Let's not aim for that!

Sarah Ellis: I know, it's probably not our ambition.  So, we're going to talk through each dysfunction pretty briefly because we think you'll all get your heads around that pretty quickly; we're going to describe what the alternative is, so what are we aiming for, what does success look like; include a question to ask each other, I do think these are more powerful and we've written these really to be asked across a team; and then an action for each of these areas. So we're going to start off with dysfunction number one, absence of trust. 

And each of these dysfunctions are not distinct, so they are all interdependent.  But certainly from the work that Lencioni has done, he argues that if you don't have this one, you're in a whole world of pain, essentially.  We've talked before on the podcast about high-trust teams, we've heard Amy Edmondson talk about psychological safety.  So, we know that this looks like people holding grudges, not asking for help, hiding mistakes or weaknesses, even, this one actually made me laugh, especially as an introvert, because I was like, "Oh, I think I just do this naturally", find ways to avoid spending time together.  And I was like, "Oh, that's just like my personality".

Helen Tupper: Can I just hold up, I was about to say, a statement that you said to me last week?  So, we are having a Squiggly Staycation this week, everybody, which is where once a year, we take the team away and spend some time together.

Sarah Ellis: You definitely should share this story?!

Helen Tupper: I'm definitely sharing this story!  And so, everyone's got their own room, but Sarah and I for years, for years, I think you've harboured this issue, we normally share a room because it kind of cuts costs also.  We've known each other for a long time, it's fine.  And we were talking about allocation, who's going and where.  There was an opportunity for one person to stay in one building on their own, and I was thinking, "Well, who would want that?  They're just going to be really lonely.  Okay, well, maybe Sarah and I will just be in there".  And Sarah basically said, "Oh, is there's a chance for me to be on my own without you, I'm up for that".  And I was like, "That's so mean.  I wanted to be with you and you just dumped me!"  Find ways to avoid spending time together?  Absence of trust, dysfunction number one, Sarah!

Sarah Ellis: It's all going to fall apart.  I was just talking about, you know, I like to re-energise by myself.

Helen Tupper: Sure.  What's the alternative?

Sarah Ellis: Let's do the alternative before we actually do disintegrate on air.  So the alternative, a high-trust team, one where there's no judgment, we're not punishing each other, yeah, not judging me for wanting to be by myself!  And I think we know that a high-trust team is one where people feel comfortable to be themselves; slightly different to bringing your whole self to work, I think that sort of feels like, well, we shouldn't expect anyone to bring all of themselves to work all of the time, because work is its own context.  But I think we all know that sense of belonging, that there's not the pressure to fit in or to feel like you're wearing a mask, because when we have to do that, it drains us and it takes away our trust.

Helen Tupper: And so a question to ask each other, if you're going to explore this particular area is, how do I help this team to succeed, and how could I hinder the team?  And I think this is, again, a self-reflection to begin with, but also a really useful thing to share with the team to see, have they got any additional insights that you could benefit from.  So, for example, I'll say this, Sarah, and you can let me know if you agree or if you spot any other things I might do to help or hinder the team.  So, I thought --

Sarah Ellis: How long have we got for the podcast?

Helen Tupper: All right!  We're in good form, everybody.  So I thought, I help the team succeed when I communicate with clarity and create positivity; and I thought I hinder the team when I don't share difficult messages, because I probably over-positise them, maybe, I don't know if that's a word, but you get it.  Communicate with clarity!  Or, I become a bit of a bottleneck for progress.  That was mine.  Any thoughts?

Sarah Ellis: Yes, that sounds accurate.

Helen Tupper: Well, there we go.  Good self-awareness, Helen!

Sarah Ellis: I think actually saying this out loud in a room to each other is really useful.  That's where I think you get the trust.  You're not really going to create trust just doing this for yourself, but if you let people know this is the exercise and then do this together, I don't think it has to be super-deep and meaningful, I think you just have to hear everyone talk about it. So mine would be, I help this team to succeed when I create new ideas that will support people in their careers, and spot how we can be even better; I hinder this team by not always acknowledging and appreciating people enough, and overwhelm people with my questions.

Helen Tupper: I agree with the first bit; I don't know if the second bit is true.

Sarah Ellis: I mean, I literally see it happening.

Helen Tupper: Well, not the acknowledging --

Sarah Ellis: Question, question, question!

Helen Tupper: It's one of the things.  It's not the one I'd have at the top of the list.  I don't think you don't acknowledge and appreciate people enough at all, I think you're very thoughtful with your appreciation.

Sarah Ellis: I think I sometimes get a bit worried that I think it and don't say it.  And because I'm so critical --

Helen Tupper: I think you show it.

Sarah Ellis: Do I?  Okay, well that's good then.  There you go, see, good conversation to have, but I think I could probably do it even more.  And so the action here comes from a Harvard Business Review article that I also read on high-performing teams that specifically looks at some more recent research, so from the past couple of years of the pandemic, around relatedness.  So, relatedness essentially means connection.  In a high-performing team, you have high levels of connection.  And they really looked at who managed to stay high performing as a team during the pandemic; what did they start doing more of; what did they do well; what have they kept doing post the pandemic?  It's a really good article, actually.  It specifically focuses on connection, but it's worth a read.  And they talk about the power of the five-minute phone call.  I think they actually just call it phone call.  I think I might have added in the five minutes.

Helen Tupper: Don't talk for too long!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  Initially I was like, I don't know if I would even put this action in, I don't like speaking on the phone.  But then what it shows is that high-performing teams are very good at picking up the phone, because they get that sometimes it's quicker, it's more efficient, you fix stuff fast.  But also you just create that bit of connection and clarity by going, "Should I just pick up the phone rather than sending 10 Teams messages, 15 Slack messages, loads of WhatsApps?"  And then I stopped to challenge myself a bit.  And I can see a couple of people in our team who are very good at this and who force me to get on the phone.  They'll be like, "Sarah, can I just call you?"  And I think, "Not really", because I'm definitely more comfortable, I'm more in my comfort zone by myself.  And actually, I don't love being interrupted in that way, I'm sort of quite focused. But I think it does, I sort of agree, that it does create connection, it does create trust, and actually I feel like it is the right thing to do in those moments.  It's just one of those things that is harder for me, and I just thought it was really interesting that the research backs that up.  And it probably acted as a reminder to me to sort of go, "Oh, Sarah, even though it might not be your default, it actually has quite a lot of good stuff, and it's quite an easy thing that everybody could do".  What about you, Helen?  I bet you like being on the phone, right?

Helen Tupper: I mean, it could just be a Teams call as well, where you can just chat something through.  I think the opportunity to get off email and off whatever form of instant message you use and go, "Shall we just chat about it quickly?"  And I had an example, someone on our team today, we're trying to sort something out and basically said, "Shall we just get Louise on the call?" and I was like, "Oh yeah, actually, that's a really good idea".  And all of a sudden, you've got a bit of connection, you've also sorted it out a lot faster in the moment, a I think knowing that you can do that as a team is really powerful.

Sarah Ellis: And this is really, for each of these, we're only kind of getting started.  We're giving you sort of a catalyst to continue.  Just wanted to quickly point you to some other things in this area.  If you're kind of going, "I am starting from trust, that feels like the most important one in our team", maybe have a listen to our episode where we talked about team building exercises, because there's loads of really easy, quick, simple ideas that don't feel too intimidating.  And even if you've got people who you hate team away days, I swear there'd be something in there that you could have a go at. There's lots of free resources on our toolkit on our website, which is just amazingif.com, if you just go to the Free Squiggly Careers Toolkit, things like More About Me, things that people could fill out and share.  And we have got a new episode coming out in a couple of weeks' time with Amy Edmondson, where she talks about trust and failure and mistakes.  So, the reason we've not talked about that today, which all kind of goes in this category, is that's coming in a couple of weeks' time.  So, if this is the one you want to dive deeper into, there's sort of a mini extra playlist for you.

Helen Tupper: And maybe what we'll try and do once that episode has come out is package all this for people so it's useful, and then we'll post about it on social media so that you've got it all in one place. Dysfunction number two then is about a fear of conflict, and this looks like teams agreeing all the time, no bad news, everything's amazing, no disagreement, everyone's right and we all think the same.  And on the surface, that can all look brilliant, but in the reality it probably means that lots of difficult things aren't being discussed because people don't feel confident enough to have the conversation.  And the alternative that we are looking for here is a team that is better because different people bring different perspectives to the conversations; and then as a result, we get better outcomes and people feel more included.

Sarah Ellis: And there was a particular sentence that really stood out for me when I was researching around these dysfunctions, and it's very rare that I get excited about a sentence, but I was like, "Oh, yes", because I bet lots of people will recognise this.  One of the things that Lencioni says is that we have got to, "Learn to resist the law of consensus and certainty, because it actually gets in the way in all sorts of ways".  When I read that I was like, with the people that I've worked with and for myself, I don't think you necessarily always have both but I think there's one of those that we are often really attracted to. So, I'm really attracted to consensus because I've got a gremlin around conflict and I find disagreements difficult.  And then I thought about Helen, I was like, "Oh, but Helen doesn't have that".  And then I was like, "Oh, yeah, but she does really like certainty".

Helen Tupper: I like to move it forward.  So, I like to make a decision, stick with it and move it forward.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  So, part of the conflict, getting comfortable with it is also, you know the sitting with the uncomfortableness of messiness and uncertainty, knowing that those conversations can feel hard and also that being okay.  And I was thinking about a conversation Helen and I had a couple of weeks ago, and I came away from it going, "That felt absolutely awful", and I felt absolutely awful.

Helen Tupper: Which conversation?

Sarah Ellis: And equally, I think what was different versus if we'd have had the same conversation a couple of years ago, I sort of had labelled it as, "Oh, well that was uncomfortable and useful", and that's very different to, "That's uncomfortable, I'm not sure I want to be doing this [or] I blame myself [or] I blame someone else".  Or I think previously, I would have spiralled in a very different direction.  And that was because it was disagreement, or certainly I felt like it was.

Helen Tupper: I mean, you're going to have to tell me!

Sarah Ellis: I'll tell you after.

Helen Tupper: You probably can't say on the recording, but I need to know!

Sarah Ellis: So this is the point, because I feel those things so keenly, that I just keep saying to myself now, uncomfortable equals useful, because of how I feel.  And I was like, "Oh, that felt like a massive move forward for me".  But I was also spotting, it's only ever Helen and I in our team where I have those kinds of conversations.  And I was like, "That must exist.  Other people must disagree with me or have a different point of view".  So, how do you create that context where that can happen easily, given lots of us I think are drawn to either the certainty or the consensus or maybe even the double?

Helen Tupper: So, the question to ask each other is, what stops us from challenging each other?  And again, I think you just want to leave that as open as it might sound, because I think if you try to constrain it, you're already limiting what that conversation could look like.  So just try to sit with -- even me, I want to be like, "Oh, it could be this, it could be that".  But I think try to sit with the uncertainty of not knowing what someone's answer to that question might be.  So, Sarah, what stops you and me challenging each other?

Sarah Ellis: I'm just working out how honest you're being!  Sometimes I think I can't be bothered.  That's the first thing that came in my head then.

Helen Tupper: Do you know what my first reaction was?  22 years of friendship.  I mean, great to know we're starting in very different places with our responses to that!

Sarah Ellis: It's the fact I find it hard and I sometimes just think, "Oh, do you know what?"  The context of everything that's happening and you're trying to be really comfy in all those things, I just think, "Yeah, sure, just move on or just let it go", or whatever it might be.

Helen Tupper: I can't decide whether I love you a little bit more or a little bit less.  I don't know, I'm just going to have to sit with it.

Sarah Ellis: You can say the friendship thing now because that sounds more positive!  So what was your one?  The friendship stopped you?

Helen Tupper: I just told you, the 20 years of friendship.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, because we're friends?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, and I'm like, "Oh, actually, is it worth us having an argument about this if it could affect our friendship?"  And most of the time the answer is no.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I was thinking that too; that was going to be my next point!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, great, good to know!

Sarah Ellis: Talk about the idea for action.

Helen Tupper: The idea for action everybody here is to name the knots.  And this is actually something that we have been talking about together and we are now going to do as a team.  Knots are the things that are not going well, kind of not going to plan or not going the way that you want it to.  And what happens, I think, when you start to notice the knots, is you realise quite a lot of them are going on.  And the idea with naming the knots is, once you can become a bit more conscious of what is not working the way you want it to and you can talk about it together as a team, it just becomes easier to discuss the difficult stuff, because a lot of the time people know what's not working very well, but they haven't either been given the language or the confidence to talk about it.  And by having these naming-the-knot meetings or conversations, you create the place for that conversation to happen and you give it a language that just makes it all feel a bit easier. Also, you might notice that some people have got the same knot, and in which case it's probably a bigger problem than people appreciate, because they haven't been talking about it, they've not connected the knots, but that's the bit that will help you prioritise what needs to be solved first.

Sarah Ellis: And one of the things that I really like about this idea is it connects to something I was talking to a leader about last week, where they said, "For years, we've been encouraged to not share problems, share solutions".  I was like, "Oh, yeah, you always say that, don't you, to teams.  You kind of hear that phrase, 'Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions'".  This person was saying to me, he's like, "No, it's okay to sometimes just bring me problems", because of this expectation of, you must have solved it all yourself.  And this is where you get to some of these actions, I think, help with more than one of these areas, and this definitely helps with the next one that we're going to talk about as well, you know, the sort of freedom to be able to talk about a knot without having untangled it all yourself.

Actually, Helen and I realised this, we were chatting last week, and we were saying we sort of created this expectation, I think, on ourselves that we feel like we should be untangling all the knots.  And then you sort of get to, "Well, we might not be the best people to entangle these knots.  We're probably missing out on ideas and insights by feeling like that it all has to kind of sit with us".  And so I think that that's a kind of added benefit of this.  It's interesting, I think, when you give people permission to name knots.  And actually, I think if I was doing this, and I think when we do this, being really explicit about, "You don't need to come having solved the knot, you just need to be able to name it". There were some really interesting insights from Esther Perel, who's brilliant, particularly on conflict at the moment. 

I think she's launching a new course on conflict, so she's done a lot of research on it.  There's a great post that she's done, I think part of her newsletter, on how conflict avoidant we're all becoming and what we can do about it.  So I've got the link to that.  I had a read of that yesterday and it's a really good read.  Her newsletter generally is very good, she's very thoughtful, she's done lots of research, she talks about conflict in lots of different parts of our life.  And if this is something that is a really big barrier for you, that programme might be something that you want to explore a bit further. So dysfunction number three is lack of commitment. 

This looks like you don't have commitment across a team, and maybe if you're a leader, it might be because you're trying to do it all yourself, and so no one really has any ownership, maybe other than you, which can feel really frustrating.  Also, when you don't have commitment, you might miss the moment or you might gather data for too long without making decisions, or you have repeated discussions.  This one as well really hit home sometimes, you know when you're like, "Oh, we're talking about this again".  We actually previously have had a bit of a phrase that we're not using as much now, but we used to talk about what are our reoccurring red flags?  You know when you're like, "We are having another chat about …" and you're like, "Oh, okay, that's often because we've not created the commitment to sort it, it just hasn't moved any further forward".  And I think that's always really interesting to look for when we are going round in circles essentially.

So, what are we looking for as the alternative?  I think the headline here is involve, don't solve.  So, even if people don't agree with the decision that's made, if they have been part of the decision-making process, they are much more likely to get on board.  So this, as we said, sort of links to the previous one.  If you've got a knot and you've all worked on it together, you might still have different points of view about the best way to fix it.  You know like you've seen the workings, you've seen how that process has happened, rather than just being told, "This is now what we're going to do".  So, I think that's the thing to think about, does everybody feel like they are all committed to what your team's trying to do, where your team's trying to go?

Helen Tupper: And the question to ask each other to start exploring this area is, when do we need to make this decision by so we don't lose momentum?  Because I think when there's a lack of commitment, to Sarah's point, you can start to circle a situation and it feels like it just gets stuck, you don't really move forward.  So, I think having that decision date in mind helps keep the team focused.  And then once you've got that focus, what we then need to do is to create the commitment. 

And the idea for action to create the commitment is to connect people's to-do list with the whys behind their work. So, when Sarah and I were talking about this idea for action, I've got this list in front of me and the title of the list is "Must Do" and there are nine things on this list that I look at.  And I think, "Well, they all seem equally important and I've no idea which one of these I must do or is the right one to do first".  So I was like, "Well, I know these are important.  I honestly haven't got a lot of commitment to them.  They're things that I know need to be done, but I can't say that I'm committed to one over another".  And we were thinking, what really helps you to create commitment?  And we think there are three things that increase your commitment to an action or a project or an outcome, whatever it is. The first is knowing why this matters to me, so kind of connecting with it personally; the second is, why this matters to my team, so what is the difference this makes to people that I work with on a day-to-day basis; and then the third is, why does this matter to my organisation?  And if you can look at the things that are on your list, we've all got long lists of things to be done, and you can pick out things that clearly matter to you and that matter to your team and that matter to your organisation, then actually not only do you create commitment, because suddenly that is not just another thing on your to-do list, that is something that's very important to get done, but also I think you connect with it emotionally as well.  So, it helps to prioritise and create that kind of emotional commitment to it.

Sarah Ellis: And we talked about how our sort of hypothesis, having only just sort of developed this thought, is that this becomes even more powerful when you do this together.  So actually, perhaps this would be something to be really useful in a one-to-one conversation, because together you can create commitment, and also we always know there's quite a lot of power in saying things out loud, which helps with one of the things that we're going to talk about next. 

So actually, when Helen showed me that list and then we started to do those whys together, I might say, "Oh, I've got a different point of view on why this matters to the team", because you might have said, "Oh, I don't think that matters to the team"; I'd be like, "I think that really matters, and this is why", and you're like, "Okay, well that's a different perspective.  Maybe that bumps something further up the list than we'd imagined".  I wonder if that could be quite a good conversation, particularly one-to-one. So, dysfunction number four is avoidance of accountability.  And so, this looks like actions not getting done or not getting completed on time, blame culture, resenting each other for having different standards of performance -- I was like, "That sounds really dramatic" -- relying on your leader to call out mistakes or give feedback or manage performance.  So this is where people's accountability almost gets delegated to the person leading the team, rather than having individual and also cross-functional accountability. One of the things that Lencioni is really clear about, when you read about this area, is this is not about everybody just having more individual accountability.  There's a really big part in peer-to-peer, in like cross-team accountability. 

So the alternative here is no say-do gap, so you do what you say you're going to do.  It's not about top level, it's sort of everybody is accountable.  And so, I sort of described this in the end, when I was sort of summarising this to myself, as like level-less accountability.  And actually for both behaviours and actions, almost if somebody isn't behaving in a way that's consistent with, I don't know, what you say you're going to do as a team or how you say you're going to show up as a team, that feels unacceptable, people are held to account, which I think does sound quite hardcore, but that's essentially what you're getting to. If actions don't happen, again, there's a sense of, "Okay, but we should have shared that responsibility together", because again, you've got to be careful.  What you're not trying to do here is get into blame or punishment, because it's very hard to have high trust and blame and punishment.  So, I think this is one where anytime anyone writes about accountability, it always gets lots of interest, because it is a hard one to get right.

Helen Tupper: And we were sort of reflecting on this again with our team, we were thinking, what was the question that we could ask that would help us; and the one that we thought would be useful is, how can we share actions and status so everyone's up to date without having to ask?  We know that's quite a long question, but the reason that we think it's important is, when there is an avoidance of accountability, or just a lack of accountability because that sounds so harsh doesn't it, avoidance, "I'm actively avoiding doing something that I said I'm going to do"; but the issue is, you feel like you have to check up on people quite a lot like, "Oh, did you take that action; and are you going to get it done by that date?"  And that sort of duplicates a lot of work and effort and probably makes someone feel like you're checking up on them or maybe micromanaging them, all that kind of stuff.  

It doesn't help a high-performing team if that's the behaviour that's going on. So, what we think is useful is if there's a bit more transparency around who is working on what and when that work is getting done.  And if the team can see that in one place and in one way, so that it's something they're familiar with, it means that a lot of those questions don't have to be asked, because everyone can see the status of things.  And yes, you might have some meetings where you review it collectively, but having that in one place really helps.  So, how can we share actions and status so that everyone's up to date without having to ask?

Sarah Ellis: So our action here is to design rewards based on team rather than individual performance.  I saw a great post from Corporate Rebels about this, where they had basically chosen milestones that matter in their company's growth, it didn't always have to be commercial, but some of them were commercial, that everybody collectively was going to be working towards.  But then as a team, they chose the rewards and what those things would look like, and they'd designed the reward system.  Now I know, I think in a smaller company, that feels easier to do for a whole company, but I was thinking about this and I was thinking even back in my kind of big-company days, I think you can do this in small ways. So there are usually still small things like, "Well, what do we want to do?  Do we want to go out for some food together?  Do we want to go and do a cooking class together?"  That's what Helen's making our team do this week, "Do we want to do some learning together?" like what would feel really motivating?  And again, going back to connecting the dots, you're involving people.  So rather than going, "Oh, we're going to redesign rewards and we're going to tell you what that is", you're actually going, "Well, team, you're very clearly signalling team is more important than individual, but you tell us, let's together decide what that could look like".  That feels to me like a really interesting one to experiment with.

Helen Tupper: And it could just be a time-based reward as well like, "Do you want to take the afternoon off on a Friday?"  I'm conscious that not all teams have budgets, particularly I think at the moment, it can be quite hard on lots of teams.

Sarah Ellis: That's one of the ones I saw actually, when I was reading this yesterday, it was taking a day off.  So some teams chose time back, some people chose an extra day for learning.  So actually, a lot of them weren't to do with spending money necessarily.

Helen Tupper: So the final dysfunction that we wanted to focus on is an inattention to results.  And this one looks like where you get distracted by work that isn't a priority, the sort of urgent, not important stuff that dominates your days, and you end up not being focused on the outcomes, so the bigger things that move the team forward; and also, you're not pulling together to succeed.  So, maybe it's a lot of individually very busy people, but not a team that together are making a bigger difference.  And so what we're trying to do as an alternative here is make us a team that puts the team goals ahead of the individual's needs.  Easier said than done, perhaps, but that's ultimately the better outcome, where we're sort of taking a team-first approach to our work.  And then the individual actions follow, but we're already clear on what does us being a good team, achieving good results look like. The question to ask ourselves here is, when a result is at risk, what do we do? 

And again, this comes from, I guess, some of our own reflections, that sometimes results are at risk and for various reasons, they don't get called out, either because people haven't appreciated the importance of them, or maybe perhaps you've not created the trust where people feel they can raise it as an issue.  But I think as a team, you do need to talk about (a) what are the results we're going after together, and (b) when a result is at risk, what are we going to do?

Sarah Ellis: And so our idea for action here, which we've just started experimenting with probably in the last month or so, and certainly in pockets, we're seeing it work well, so jury's out on whether it will last or not, but we're doing something called fast flagging.  So, fast flag and team follow up.  This is our attempt at, what do we do when a result is at risk; we do a fast flag, so don't wait, don't hope it's going to resolve itself, those things just never happen; flag to one other person, to a group of other people, and then make the point that actually as a team you want to resolve the risk.  It doesn't always have to sit and fall with that one person.

Actually, we were saying, I even had an example of that first thing today, where we've got somebody, a freelancer for a day, they needed access to something to be able to do some animation, and I couldn't make that happen, because I wasn't physically at my laptop.  But the result was at risk, because you're paying for that person for the day, and it's important for our company and for the companies that we work with.  So I did a really fast flag, basically to everybody, and a really quick team follow-up, like, how do we make this happen; who can help; how can we make sure that this result is at risk, because otherwise it will cost us money, it will cost us time?  There's sort of an urgency in fast flagging, I think, and just this sense of just because you're the person doing the fast flag, you don't have to be the follow-up, you don't always have to be the person sorting it. What's really nice about this as well is you start to spot who can help who.  And actually, if no one can help, that's also really useful to know. 

Better to know than to not know, because somewhere then you've created either a bottleneck or there's only one person who knows how that process works.  It's sort of the thing that happens sometimes when someone goes on holiday.  But if we're trying to aim here for the whole being bigger than the sum of the parts, I think you have to be able to pull together when results are at risk, particularly ones that have big consequences for commercials or your growth.

Helen Tupper: I think my caveat here is linked that last point, particularly ones that Sarah talked about.  I think with fast flags, it cannot be an excuse for an individual making their urgent everyone else's important, so like, "Oh, well I need to get this done today, so can you just do this?"  That is ineffective.  I think fast flagging is most useful for those team priorities.  If you have got a team project or priority that is at risk, then I think a fast flag is really important.  If you're just not consistently doing something you're committed to, that's an individual issue.  So, just be aware of that kind of making your urgent everyone else's important, because then that just derails the team anyway.

Sarah Ellis: And I think the more time I've spent with this and then Helen and I have talked about this preparing for today, you really realise there is no point where unfortunately you get a "ta-da" here's your medal for becoming a high-performing team, which is a bit annoying because who doesn't like a medal or a trophy?

Helen Tupper: You'd love it.

Sarah Ellis: I would actually love that.  My 6-year-old also really loves a trophy.

Helen Tupper: Where does he get that from?

Sarah Ellis: I don't know!  So, I think that's important to know.  There is no, "You've done this, you can tick this off your to-do list".  But I do think it is useful to think about, well, how are you going to measure how far you've come, because we're not always brilliant at giving ourselves credit for things.  And so actually, as I was going through this, and you can't help but put your own filter on it, I was thinking, "Okay, well as a team, in each of these areas, I can see some things that we do that are good, that are working well, that do support our growth".  And it is so natural to look at the gaps that you've got first.  But I think it's actually helpful to do the reverse. Firstly look at, "What do we already do that's really helping us be a good performing, a very good performing team.  Okay, well let's keep doing those, let's call those things out so people know that they're really important.  Okay, now, what gaps have we got?  And what are we going to experiment with; what are we going to try out to see if we can sort of raise our performance even further?"  But I do think having some just press-pause moments along the way as well to go, "Well, how are we performing; how is it feeling; how far have we come?" also feels like an important part of this process.  And that's focused-on a little bit less actually, but I think performance helps you to perform even better.  So, I think just making sure you factor those things in feels like it matters.

Helen Tupper: And if you want to turn this into a team exercise, I would suggest either giving people the link to this episode, or giving them the link to the PodSheet before a meeting on it, so they've got a little bit of time to think about, "What do we do well; where have we got some gaps?"  I think you'll get a better conversation in the moment, whether you do it virtually or in-person, but I'd use the resources to support the team conversation.

Sarah Ellis: So, we hope this has been useful and we hope it does help you to continue to develop your high performance individually and together.  That's everything that we've got for this week.  Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.