Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:16: A career surprise
00:03:32: Kindness & Leadership
00:05:08: Knotty moments, and the electric wok!
00:07:43: Advice for starting out, and asking for help
00:14:23: Building connections
00:19:19: Proud moments in a Squiggly Career
00:21:19: Seven Qs of Success, and inspirational people
00:25:27: Prioritising your time
00:27:33: Pinky's career advice, and future plans
00:31:21: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah and this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Thanks so much to everybody who has joined us for the 20-day Skills Sprint during August, or whenever you've been sprinting.  We've had more than 5,000 people signed up to sprint with us, and the episodes aren't going anywhere, so you can start your sprint at any time that suits you.  We'll also be sharing more ideas for how you can sprint as a team, or even as an organisation, in September, so watch this space for those.  If you've got any feedback on the sprint or podcast topics that you'd like us to cover, or even guests that you'd like to hear from, please get in touch with us.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.

Next week, Helen and I will be back with business as usual, exploring ideas and tools that will help you to find time to think.  Who doesn't need to find a bit more time to think during their working week?  But this week's episode is something a bit different.  Every so often, we get the chance to speak to someone about their Squiggly Career story.  Stories are always such an inspiring and memorable way to learn, and this week, you're going to hear me in conversation with Pinky Lilani, CBE.  Pinky's squiggles include food guru, writer, entrepreneur, women's advocate, and Pinky brings to life many of the skills we've been exploring together in the sprint, asking for help, curiosity, resilience. 

But what particularly struck me about Pinky was her kindness, warmth and courage.  I have never felt so well looked-after during a podcast conversation.  She invited me to her home and then cooked me an absolutely delicious curry for lunch afterwards and sent me home with loads of snacks for my six-year-old son and things to try out.  And just spending time with Pinky left me with such a warm glow of opportunity and that you can probably do more than you can imagine or give yourself credit for.  I really hope by listening to our conversation together, you get that same feeling.  And maybe this gives you the nudge that you need to do something brave that really matters to you.  Enjoy the conversation.  I'll be back at the end. 

So, Pinky, thank you so much for joining us today on the Squiggly Careers podcast.  I'm so looking forward to our conversation together.  Let's start with something about your career that might surprise our listeners.  What's a story that you've got that might either shock people or just something that people might not know about you?

Pinky Lilani: Well, you know, everybody has their own stories and I guess the story from my career is I had no aspiration to have any career because I came from India many, many years ago, where I came up in family where women didn't really work.  And the other thing is a great thing I'd like to say, that it's a great thing to be living in the UK where diversity is so high on the agenda and I'm a woman, I'm an ethnic minority woman, I'm a Muslim woman, I'm an older woman, and I'm disabled.  And about 20 years ago, I developed a hearing problem, so I am profoundly deaf.  And I tell people up front, because that doesn't help your career when you can't hear what people are saying, but I think the journey's been really interesting, because I've done all the things I love doing, and the things I had no expectations of or any dreams of doing. 

So, I think really it's like food is such a big part of my life, teaching people about food, teaching them about leadership.  And I've developed a theory called the theory of Seven Qs of Success, and that's been something really interesting and exciting for me. 

Sarah Ellis: And so as part of that success, you've already mentioned to me, as we've met and you've very kindly invited me to your home today, but how important it is to be kind.  And kindness is not always a trait that certainly when I was growing up in big organisations, leaders weren't talking about being kind, but we've heard it a lot more in the last couple of years.  So why do you think kindness is so important, not just with our friends and families, but also in the work that we do?

Pinky Lilani: I think kindness for me is one of the most important qualities in our lives.  And actually they say, I always think I have a mantra, so my mantra is, "You have not lived a perfect day unless you've done something for someone who can never repay you".  And I think kindness for me is so important because it changes people's lives and that's why we set up the first Kindness & Leadership, a leading list of 50 people in the UK in 2018, and we opened the London Stock Market on World Kindness Day which was 13 November, the publication of the list.  And almost every person who was on the list has in the past years told me how much it meant to them to be recognised as a kind leader, because I think everyone can be kind, you don't have to be qualified to be kind, and therefore it plays a huge part in our lives.

Sarah Ellis: I think that's really inspiring and when I think back to the people that I've worked with and for who've had the biggest influence on me, they've actually all been really kind; they've been brilliant leaders, and a big part of that is they've been empathetic and I felt that they cared about me as an individual, not just the organisation we were in.  And if people are listening to you now, often when I get the opportunity to talk to some very amazing people and it looks like everything has gone swimmingly all the time, but I always say to everyone, "There is no such thing as a straight line to success".  Everybody has knotty moments in their career, or you have moments where things don't go to plan and things feel hard.  And so I wondered if there was a moment like that that you'd be open to sharing with us, and also maybe what you learned from that. 

Pinky Lilani: Yeah, I think everybody has times in their life when things don't go according to plan.  We'd all love it to go according to plan, but it didn't.  We had COVID and obviously so many of our events are where people come together.  We couldn't, so we had to go on to Zoom.  But I never give up.  I think very important in my life, the two things that I think of are courage and curiosity.  So whenever I do get stuck, I go to other people for answers because I don't always answer them.  And you know, obviously for me, the hearing has been a disability.  And last year, I had a mishap in life, which took me out of being there, and you still get to learn.  I think from every mishap or things that don't go right, you learn something and something new comes out of it. 

So, when I was looking, when I wanted to say about leadership, for instance, and people would ask me to come and talk in leadership, and I remember when I was invited to give my first global leader lecture on leadership, and they invited me to Cambridge Business School for the global leaders lecture, and the person before me the week before was the CEO of Barclays globally, and the week after me was some -- and I was nothing, so I told the guy, why would anybody want to hear me?  And he said, "No, I think they would".  I said, "Can I bring my wok?"  He said, "What do you do with your wok?"  I said, "Bring an electric wok --"

Sarah Ellis: I bet that's not a question he gets that often, "Can I bring my wok?"!

Pinky Lilani: Yes, "Can I bring my wok?"  So, I took the wok and I made spicy Bombay potatoes in five minutes at the end of the lecture, and I do that all the time now.  So, the wok has gone to the Bank of England, it's gone to Radio 4, it's gone to departments of government, major corporates.  So, I think what you do when you don't succeed or things don't go according to plan, is to be creative and innovative, and all of us can be that.  If I can do it, anyone can do it.

Sarah Ellis: One of the things that I definitely observe as a common theme is that when people have constraints, they approach those constraints with creativity and curiosity.  They're the people who overcome inevitable obstacles and that's exactly what you've just described there so beautifully.  And if somebody listening now is maybe thinking about starting up their own business or doing their own thing, we know that's a really common goal that people have, but there's lots of risks associated with that.  People get worried about, "What happens if I fail?  Is my idea a good one?"  What advice would you give to people who are thinking perhaps about starting out by themselves, rather than working for someone else?

Pinky Lilani: I think it's something that everyone can go into and I obviously had no aspirations, and I had no talent I thought to do that.  But I think it's about asking other people for help, so your networks are very important just to get ideas from people.  Of taking risks, we all fail, you learn from your failures.  I've failed so many times when I thought, "I haven't got this right, what do I do next?"  So, I think the main thing is to be innovative and to be creative and to be passionate.  People love that.  People like people who've got passion.  For me, values are very important.  If you're doing anything, the integrity that you have is very important.  And also, carry on, it doesn't matter if you fail sometimes.  Go back and do it a different way.  We've done that obviously with so many programmes we've had.  Things don't always work out. 

I remember we first set up our awards, and we had eight categories of awards that we wanted people.  And we didn't know how to get them.  Some of them were very oversubscribed, some were undersubscribed.  And I think you just have to still do it and tell people.  Sometimes it's quite nice to admit, "I'm so sorry, I didn't get it the way I wanted to", you don't have to always claim to have got everything right, because everybody has failure, we have to recognise that. 

Sarah Ellis: And also, what's so reassuring to hear you talk about there is asking for help, because we know that lots of people find it really hard to ask for help.  They get worried about, "Maybe that means that I'm not smart enough, or maybe I should already know the answers, or someone's too busy to help me, I don't want to be a burden".  So, I see that in lots of the work that we do.  When I talk about one of the ways to be resilient is you've got to practice asking for help, that feels like a real barrier for lots of people.  What do you think helps you to do that, because it sounds like that's something that you're really confident doing and you've really recognised the value?  And we know that in high-performing teams, you see lots of asking for help.  So, it is commercially really important, as well as from a learning perspective, really important to get good at asking for help.  Any hints and tips for people who struggle with that?

Pinky Lilani: I think you should just go and ask people and just say, "I wondered if you could help me".  Just ask them and some of them will give you the answers that will be good and others will give you a total waste of time, which is also fine, but there are always people when I want answers, and we've got this amazing network of women now because we set up the Asian Women of Achievement Award 24 years ago.

Sarah Ellis: Wow!

Pinky Lilani: So, we've got this amazing delegation of people everywhere, and we've gone global for the first time.  Last year, we launched our first global listing of women working in ESG under 35 around the world.  And we were so worried because I thought, "I don't know people in South America and Africa, how am I going to get nomination?  I have to ask people for help".  So, we went asking for help, so don't be afraid.  One of the things that I love what we do is, for instance, I'm always looking at ways how we can connect people.  Remember last year, there was a scientist from Imperial who got shortlisted and she actually won our award.  She developed a sponge that kind of soaks up toxins and everything else in water. 

Sarah Ellis: Wow!

Pinky Lilani: Amazing.  And she told me that they put it into water and into the whatever and do it.  And I said, "I remembered Liv Garfield".  Liv Garfield won our award in 2007, the Women of the Future.  And after winning our award, a few years later, she became the youngest CEO of a FTSE 100 company, as Severn, and she's still a CEO and she's amazing.  And those kind of people are really busy, but if you write to them, they always respond.  So, I thought I should connect these two because this woman is doing the new sponge in toxic water.  And so, I emailed Liv and said, "There's this amazing winner".  She said, "Pinky, please do connect us", and they were working together within ten days. 

Sarah Ellis: Amazing.

Pinky Lilani: So I think if I hadn't done that, they wouldn't have met each other.  And I think we need to think all the time, every single day, think and sit and say, what can we do from the people we've met so people don't have to ask me, "Can you connect me to someone?" I will do it if I think it's appropriate.  And I find it's not that common, but I just love doing it.  And most people like being asked, because everybody can give you a little bit maybe, so never be afraid.  And keep asking different people.  I ask sometimes the most strange people who I meet on the train, perhaps, or on the bus, and you'd be surprised how they can help you, so never be afraid.

Sarah Ellis: I once had a brilliant conversation with a female CEO who works in the city, and there are not many of those, and she said to me, "No one has a monopoly on wisdom, so ask as many people for help as you possibly can, because all you do is just learn more" and I really took that to heart.  And I think if you're also asking for help on something you feel really passionate about, then it does make it easier because you think, "Well, it might feel hard, but actually I really care about this thing", so try and I think connect the dots between what you care about and asking for help. 

Pinky Lilani: Absolutely, I think that's so important. I'm always helping everyone because obviously we have people who are part of our network who ring me up.  Sometimes I know them well, sometimes I don't, but I will never give up.  And I think what's helped me is, I love having people to my home, so people aren't used to be inviting someone home for lunch or dinner.

Sarah Ellis: No, it doesn't happen to me very often!

Pinky Lilani: And so, I just do it relentlessly.  And they love coming because that makes them feel you care about them.  So, I think even if I don't have the right answer, but sometimes I ring up the most incredible people I've done nothing with who are probably in a totally different field and ask them for help, and then they tell me something that I just didn't know.  And the whole thing about real learning, so at my age, and you know I'm 69, curiosity and courage plays a big part.  So, I really want to still keep learning and that's important.  I don't care how old you are, you learn all the time.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's such a good example of, we are all a work in progress and that never stops.  It doesn't matter how old you are or what experiences you've got.  I think the thing that we see, the people who are really succeeding in their careers now, are those people with that real learning agility.  They're always learning, they're really open to learning.  And one of the things I really noticed, Pinky, when I was researching you, before today, is just how brilliant you are at bringing people together, at connecting people, at getting people in a room, often in your home.  And that's, again, something that I think we've seen in some research over the past couple of years since COVID.  Particularly women have stopped building relationships beyond the ones that they need for their day job. 

So, we're good at building relationships that we need to tick the tasks off our to-do lists, but we deprioritise what we describe as curious career conversations, having those conversations where you're exploring, you're not sure where they might lead, you go and meet some people that you don't know, just to see what might happen.  And of course, we appreciate that's hard because people are busy and it can feel really tough to do that.  But what advice would you have for people about the importance of connecting with people, spending time learning from other people, maybe beyond the people you see every day or talk to every day on Zoom?

Pinky Lilani: I think that's absolutely one of the most important things after kindness, what gives people success is who they know, because that's what helps you in your growth.  And I think there's so many different people and it's really going into fields that you know nothing about that's exciting.  So, I didn't know what ESG even stood for last year when I came up with the idea that we want to do this global listing.  And I think it's really, really important that we actually pursue finding out about new things, seeing if anything's working, how you can make it work.  And I think bringing people together is so important because I remember two months ago I had in my house this burlesque artist, a British Airways pilot, with an engineer, with somebody from the media, and I love the cross-sectoral kind of energy that comes. 

If you work in the banking world, if all the people you meet are just from that one area, it may be very good for you, but I think what really helps us to grow and develop and have vision and have hope and have your dreams, because if you can dream it you can do it.  And so when we went into Southeast Asia to launch our awards there, and it was a totally different world, their culture is different.  When we were looking for nominations, people didn't want to nominate themselves because they said they didn't want to self-promote so much.  We had to approach it differently.  But what helped us is other people, it was people telling us, "You should do it like this", and we didn't know all the answers, so that's part of our journey.  We have to keep learning and meeting new people and going and talking to absolutely people who you have nothing in common with, because you will find something.  And I find kindness, warmth, credibility, that's what I love about people.

Sarah Ellis: Well, I'm very glad you came and spoke to me.  So, the reason that Pinky and I met is that we were at Downing Street, myself and Helen, who usually is on the podcast with me, and we were feeling a bit of imposter syndrome, "Why are we at Downing Street on International Women's Day?"  We didn't know that many people.  And actually, Pinky just walked up to us and just said, "Hello, tell me a bit more about what you do", we got into a chat.  Helen and Pinky started talking about all of the gems that they were both wearing.  And then Pinky just said to us, "Do you fancy coming to my house and having a chat?"  And that happens so rarely, I think, that offer to just support, to have interesting conversations, the chance to borrow brilliance from other people. 

So, I often talk to people on the podcast and say, I set myself the goal of making sure that at least once a month, I'm having a curious career conversation.  And I get nervous meeting new people.  I am more introverted, but I never regret it.  I never think, "I wish I'd not done that".  All I think is, "I might have been a bit nervous", so I was definitely nervous coming here today, but you learn so much and it's sort of worth getting over maybe that slight fear that might get in your way if you are more introverted like me, because you will just get so much energy I think and so many new connections as a result.

Pinky Lilani: And I tell people, "Be the best version of yourself".  And I think that's what we all -- there's certain things...  I mean, I've been very lucky because the journey's been so varied from having had a meeting with Michelle Obama to meeting Jimmy Choo to, you know, really very different people.  And I think one thing I'd really like to say is, people shouldn't take themselves too seriously, they should give others that credibility.  Because the one thing I don't enjoy meeting self-promoters, you meet someone who all they do is just try to tell you about themselves in a way that, you know, I like to pick up things about people, I like to ask the questions.  So, my advice to people would be to be the best version of yourself so you come across as someone that people trust.  Trusting someone, relationship-building is so important, that's helped me more than anything else.

Sarah Ellis: And as you said, you've had a very varied or Squiggly Career, you've done loads of different things during your working life.  And as you mentioned, it wasn't planned, there wasn't a big master plan.  But when you do reflect back, what stands out for you as a few things that you feel really proud of?

Pinky Lilani: Well, one thing I'm very proud of is my son.  Every Indian mother wants their child to go to Oxford and Cambridge.  One of my sons said he wanted to do an MBA and he said he was going to look at the site of this school.  I said, "I'll come with you".  He said, "Okay, mum, come with me".  He was looking around the school to enter there.  I went into the office and asked him, what do you guys do for women?  They looked at this middle-aged Indian woman and said, "What do you do?"  So, I told him what I did.  Well he got in, so I was so happy and I got a call from them to say, would I be the keynote speaker on the first day of term to the women and women's alumni.  So there I go, and I said, "Can I bring my potatoes?" obviously, and I told him, I said, "I'm speaking on the first day of your term, don't tell any of the women because if I make a mess of it, nobody will ever date you". 

Well obviously, I must have got it right because I spoke and he's married one of them.  And obviously now, Oxford is a huge partner for what we do.  So I think that's what life is about, is going into things that you don't expect and making...  I do that almost every day.  So, there are times when it doesn't work, and that's fine because you learn from that.  I think one has to be open also.  I tell people when I haven't got it right, you don't have to hide all your big things that haven't worked and I've developed this new theory of the Seven Qs of success, which I really like.  I'm asked very often about that.  People are always looking for very quick ways of being successful, but if you're kind, you go from being successful to being significant, and that's important to remember.

Sarah Ellis: Really nice.  And so, you've mentioned those Seven Qs, is it Qs of leadership?  Please don't feel you need to go through all seven, but perhaps you could give our listeners a few ideas of what some of those Qs might be, because we've got really ambitious people listening who definitely want to be in roles with big influence and impact.  So, what are some of those things that they should be thinking about?

Pinky Lilani: Well obviously, there's IQ and EQ, which we all know about.  But the two Qs that I find really interesting are the LQ; that's your likeability quotient. 

Sarah Ellis: Okay.

Pinky Lilani: And so, look at that, who are the people you like?  Go and observe who are the people you like, someone who takes an interest in you, who's caring, who's not arrogant.  I hate arrogance, so it's a quality that I stay away.  Somebody who's passionate, who's got hope for the future and dreams and who's helpful.  So, likeability quotient is really important.  And I also think MQ, meaning quotient, to have meaning in what you do, to have that passion.  AQ, your attitude, is so important, you know, that really kind of differentiates people.  And then, I changed, I used to call it the communication quotient, because the way you communicate is important, but I've changed that now to curiosity and courage, because for me they play a very important part.  And in each of them, obviously I have stories which go with it, but I've developed myself, it's very much in demand and I'm really happy about that.

I'm always amazed when people tell me, "Oh, we really like what you said, can you come and talk about it?"  I say, "Oh, my God, I hope I remember everything I said"!  So, you know, life is just great fun.  And I'm so delighted to meet you today, because you have some of the qualities that I value.  You're warm, you listen, you're passionate.  But, you know, there's also, you're not just full of yourself, you're full of how you can change the world and impact, and I think those are things I look for in people.

Sarah Ellis: And I always say to people, no one succeeds in their Squiggly Career by themselves, and I think we've heard that today in our conversation, we need to get the right people around us.  Who are some of the people who've really influenced and inspired you, whether that's friends, families, work connections, throughout your careers?  Are there a couple of standout mentors that have stayed with you, or has it been very different at different stages of your career?

Pinky Lilani: I think I would say, if I am successful, it's because I stand on the shoulders of giants.  And I'm so grateful for the amazing team, the three people who work with me and my team, who are amazing in so much of what I do.  There's been people like Cherie Blair, who've been amazing, who came to our first awards years ago, who's really been just phenomenal and supportive.  There's Her Royal Highness Princess Badiya, who's one of our patrons, who again is a person of credibility but will take things very seriously, and all the people who support some of the amazing winners we've had. 

Our first winner 24 years ago was Dame Parveen Kumar, who was an Indian woman.  She wrote a book called Kumar and Clark's which every medical person, it was their Bible, and she was 24 years ago.  And I've been in touch with people who we have known all those years.  I think when people often go into networks and they just are there for a little while and they go away, what we have built is a community that keeps in touch.  So, I think that's very important, relationship-building and keeping in touch.  I'll ring up people after maybe ten years and say, "How are you?" and everybody goes through different things.  Some people we met on a real high have actually fallen and then it's gone the other way, but we're always there.  

Really my vision is, how do we build a global community where we can connect people?  Somebody in Peru who was on our ESG list can connect with someone in Thailand.  Nobody gives them access, but I want to give access to everyone if they're good people. 

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's one of the things that we definitely share.  We're so passionate about making career development accessible to everybody.  It doesn't matter where you are, what country you're in, we don't want things like money to be a barrier or who you work for to be a barrier.  So, I think that mission is so meaningful.

Pinky Lilani: Absolutely.

Sarah Ellis: And you must have to make lots of decisions and choices about how you spend your time, because you must have lots more demands on your time than you actually have hours in a day.  And I'm sure that's been true for quite a long time now.  And we often get asked about how to manage time and how to prioritise, how to make decisions about where to spend your time, and also what to say no to, because you must have to say no to some things, but you do sound like you're very busy.  How do you make those judgment calls?  How do you think about what feels useful, what feels like the right thing for me to spend my time on?

Pinky Lilani: Obviously, when choosing how you spend your time, what's important for the programmes you're running.  So, if we're having judging, then it has to all be if you've got the awards on, that's very important.  But I also make sure that I say yes and find time for people I don't know who seem to be really in need of some kind of interaction.  There'll be people who write to me and say, "I'm going through a really bad time, you've never met me, but I'd love to meet you", and I never say no to that.  I always feel I tell them, "Would it help you to come to my house because that'll make it easier for me instead of charging around?" 

I think I do much more than I should and even at 11.00 in the night, I'm talking to people if they're free and it's a global thing.  So, I try not to say no and sometimes, you know what really helps me, and it's a very personal thing, is sometimes when ten people want to meet me, instead of meeting them separately, I tell them, "Come together for lunch and we can all talk" and people aren't used to that.  And therefore, then one of them may want to follow up.  So, I think you just have to be, for me, I have a lot of passion for people and I realise how other people have influenced and made me what I am, so I want to be a good person for others.

Sarah Ellis: I just think as well that it is so inspiring to see how you do that and how giving you are.  You really do live that kind of mantra around kindness, even just listening to you.  It really is quite unusual just to hear people make that sense of connection and just bring people together in the way that you do.  So, I hope you also feel very proud of that, because just listening to you, I'm like, "That's an amazing thing that you are giving to people". 

So, we always ask this question to all of our guests on the podcast, thinking about your career and maybe these are some words of wisdom that someone gave you or they could just be your words of wisdom, if you were leaving our listeners today with one bit of career advice, what would your top bit of career advice be? 

Pinky Lilani: I think my thing would be, "Sell your cleverness and buy your bewilderment".  It was said by Rumi, who I'm a great follower of Rumi.  The reason why, if people haven't heard of Rumi, there's a wonderful book written called The Forty Rules of Love, by Elif Shafak, who's one of the most inspiring people I've met, she's an incredible Turkish writer.  And so those who don't know about Rumi, Rumi obviously is a very well-known philosopher and several things of what he said.  So I would really say, "Sell your cleverness and buy your bewilderment".  And bewilderment helps you to keep learning, so you don't know all the answers.  And really just be out there doing all the things you love and don't be afraid of failure, but also sell your cleverness and buy your bewilderment because that's really important. 

Sarah Ellis: And actually one final question from me, what are you looking forward to over the next few years when you look ahead?  I am not imagining you retiring quietly and suddenly stopping seeing everybody.  So, what do the next few years hold for you? 

Pinky Lilani: I really want to see how we can make the Women of the Future a global programme, how it can be there even when I'm not there, so that it remains substantial and significant.  I don't want it just to fizzle out.  I know at present I get worried when people say, "Well, we always think of you when we think of it", and it's not that, it has to be something much more.  So my hope is, what do we do to really make a difference and have that difference parading in the world way after.  And I'd like to keep going till I drop down dead!  I mean, I still haven't retired.  What will I do if I retire?  You know, I love people.  So, I think I'm very lucky because we've gone global and it's so exciting. 

This girl from Thailand who won our award last year in Southeast Asia, she was only 18.  She was applying to American University and she said, "Can you support me?"  I'd never met her and I said I'd be very happy.  And so I supported her and she wrote to me last week saying, "I want to thank you and your team because you all have changed my life".  I applied to so many universities, to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, Wharton and I've got in to them and I have to thank you because without you, I wouldn't have done it.  Totally exaggerated in her thanking me, but how lovely that we can help people on the way.  So I love that when we get those, you never know how what you do is going to really affect people. 

Sarah Ellis: One of the things that we've seen in a lot of research is how people who give without keeping score gain so much in return and it's often the givers in organisations who are also the most successful, which sometimes sounds counterintuitive, people think, "I must take things"; but actually, it's the givers, it's the people whose first question is, "Well, how can I help and who can I help?" and just our conversation today, Pinky, I feel like you are the ultimate case study for that research!  I feel like every day you just think, "Well, what can I give?"  And then it all comes back, and that's why people are so grateful and are thanking you, because you're very humble about it, and you've got lots of humility, which is lovely.  But your impact is really wide-reaching and so significant. 

So, thank you so much for joining us today on the Squiggly Careers podcast.  I feel very proud and privileged that we had the chance to have this conversation.

Pinky Lilani: Thank you, that was lovely.  I've enjoyed every minute of it, thank you.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you for listening to today's Squiggly Careers podcast episode with Pinky Lilani.  Next week, Helen and I will be back talking about how to find time to think.  But that's everything for now.  If you do get a moment to rate, review, share or subscribe, it makes a massive difference to our podcast.  It's how we keep growing and keep going and it's a five-minute favour that makes a real difference to us.  We read every single review and it really helps us to just continue to work out how we can be useful for you and your Squiggly Career.  So if you get a moment to do that, we'd be very grateful and we'll speak to you again next week.  Bye for now.