Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:02:49: Paying attention

00:05:13: Listening takes effort

00:06:36: The power of silence

00:11:31: Rapport is not necessarily a true connection

00:12:51: The quality of conversations

00:17:29: Assumptions affect the quality of conversations

00:18:39: The importance of questions

00:20:06: How to knowing if you're a good listener

00:26:07: Bad listening behaviours

00:32:41: A storytelling exercise

00:36:58: Kate's career advice

00:40:02: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi everybody, it is Helen from the Squiggly Careers podcast, I hope you're well.  If this is the first time you are here, then you should know that this is a weekly podcast show with over 300 episodes, where we talk about the ins, outs, ups and downs of careers and give you some ideas for action, some tools to try out, so you've got a bit more confidence and control over your career development, which we all need at times in our Squiggly Careers.

Normally, it is me and Sarah talking about lots of different topics, so already this year we've talked about social influence, we've talked about stress tolerance; and today, I'm not talking to Sarah.  Today, I'm going to be talking to author and journalist, Kate Murphy.  It's one of our Ask the Expert episodes, and we are talking about the topic of listening.  Kate has written a brilliant book called You're Not Listening and that's really what we dive into today on the podcast. 

So, you'll hear us exploring how the way that we're working isn't always great for our ability to listen at work; we'll talk a little bit about some bad habits that get in the way of our listening; and, we'll talk about what you can do differently so you can really hear what people are trying to say to you at work. I hope that by listening to this, you'll learn a lot about listening, that sounds very weird to say; but more importantly there's some things that you can do after today.  I would love to get your feedback on what you've taken away from the conversation and any thoughts about other topics you would like us to cover, or people you would like Sarah and me to talk to.  You can email us at helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com and don't forget, and you might not know this if this is your first time here, but our episodes all come with PodSheets.  So, they are downloadable summaries which really feature some of the key ideas for action, and some coach-yourself questions for you to consider as well.

You can get that in two ways.  Either go to our website, amazingif.com; on the podcast page you can find them all.  Or, sign up for PodMail, which is in the show notes for this episode, and also on that podcast page on our website, and you'll get an email every Tuesday, which has all the resources in all in one place.  So, decide what you want to do.  If you want another email, we've got a good one for you every Tuesday; if you'd rather find it for yourself, it's all on our website for you.  But let's go onto the conversation. Welcome, Kate, to the Squiggly Careers podcast.

Kate Murphy: Thank you so much for having me, I'm happy to be here.

Helen Tupper: So, you probably hear it a lot but I think it's quite disconcerting, I've been thinking about this before we spoke, about having a conversation with somebody who's an expert in listening; it just feels a little bit daunting that I might do it wrong when we're talking about this together, which I'm sure loads of people must say when they speak to you!

Kate Murphy: Yes, that has been a drawback of writing the book!  People do get a little bit self-conscious, but they slide right back into it.  The thing that I love though is when they say, "Now, what was the name of your book again?"

Helen Tupper: You're Not Listening, everyone, that is the name of the book!  Brilliant!  Well, just to kick us off, I wanted to start with this topic and idea of attention, and also to just think about the way that we're working now, so by that I guess I mean increasingly hybrid, highly reactive, maybe that's just my life, but lots of information, sometimes it feels like too much stuff to do; and how that way that we're working might be affecting our attention and also our ability to listen to people.

Kate Murphy: Well, it's not helpful.  I mean, you've hit something that's really happened since COVID, because people are working in different circumstances and oftentimes, more distracting circumstances.  When they're at home, they're juggling family, not that they weren't juggling their family before, but when they're right in front of you, it makes it a little bit harder.  So, there's just a lot of competing demands.  And as I talk about in the book, when we talk about "paying attention", it is actually something that you pay and it's in limited quantities, so you only have so much of it; and multitasking is a myth, so it does make it more difficult to focus.

But that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book, which by the way, when people say they may feel intimidated talking, I'm not an expert listener either, we all struggle with this.  It's not a finger-wagging book, it's just to identify the things that may get in our way and help us do it better.  And one of them is to really be mindful of what's competing for my attention right now.  If I really want to have a focused conversation with someone, I need to put those distractions away, even if those distractions are within my own mind.

Helen Tupper: And when I was reading, I think one of the realisations that I came to is how much energy listening should take.  If you're really listening to somebody and you're giving them all of that attention and you're making sure that you're not being distracted by stuff going on around you, that energy is using quite a lot of it.  So, with that in mind, do you think we should turn up our listening attention for every single conversation that we have, like high-quality listening should be in every moment of the day when people are talking; or, do you think we dial it up more for moments that matter or conversations that are particularly important?

Kate Murphy: That is such a good point and one of the reasons why I wrote the book is that listening is a skill, it takes effort.  A lot of people think of listening, "Well, okay, my lips aren't moving and so I'm listening".  It's not, it's a focused attention and you have to choose.  Your attention is a gift and you have to choose who deserves your attention and who is important to listen to.  Unfortunately, you can't listen to everybody, particularly in that focused way. I'm kind of one of those people who feel like, and maybe it's because of the work I do, I have to listen and I have to listen well and if I get something wrong, everybody knows about it.  And so, I feel like if I'm going to listen to somebody, I'm going to listen to them and really listen with focused attention, whether it's professionally or personally.  Then, if I can't give somebody that degree of attention, it's not something that I enter into, because people know when you're not listening, they know when you're half listening.  As a result, it really diminishes the exchange, the relationship, so you just have to decide who you're going to give that gift to, and there are only so many hours of the day.  I have a whole chapter in the book about when to stop listening, so you have to make your choices.

Helen Tupper: I find that one of the things that has helped me, and I think I have a long way to go to be what's described as a good listener, but one of the things that has helped me has been training as a coach, because I think you have to get really intentional then about asking questions and then sitting in silence while the other person that you're coaching comes to their own insights and their own conclusions, and you're not filling that space for them. You talk also quite a lot about this importance of sitting in silence when you're going to be a good listener and you're developing this ability.  Can you talk a little bit about why do people find it so hard to sit in silence, and why is it so important that we learn to do it if we want to be better listeners?

Kate Murphy: Well, it's interesting in western cultures, we call silence "dead air"; how pleasant does that sound?

Helen Tupper: Not so much!

Kate Murphy: It is something we're incredibly uncomfortable -- it's almost like people fear that you've lost the connection if there's quiet, almost like why they need to keep playing music when you're on hold so they don't think that you've lost the person, so they feel, "Okay, I'm still on here".  But it's really a bad habit because as a result, because they so fear that silence or that lost connection, people jump in before the other person hasn't even finished yet, which tells you one thing that if they can jump in immediately, they've been thinking about what they're going to stay before you've stopped talking, if they can jump in that quickly. There's something magical about allowing that beat, where you think about what they've said; and you also are transmitting to the other person, "I'm taking a moment.  I haven't just been thinking about what I'm going to say and say it back, but I'm taking a moment to take in what you said".  This is also conscious, but it's so powerful, that pause. 

And the other thing that's really important about it is a lot of times, people aren't finished and if you just give them a chance, really the best information, I've found as a journalist, but also just personally, it takes people a while to work up to what they want to say and maybe muster the courage, or maybe just even understand themselves enough that, "Okay, this is what I'm at". If you give them that beat, you give them that silence, that moment of silence, it allows them to continue.  I was actually just with somebody this morning in a meeting, and they had seemed like they had finished and I just waited a moment because I just felt like maybe there was more.  And, oh my gosh, that was the little piece that was the most important that he was holding back.  And that's why I think silence is so incredibly important, and it's really just in western cultures.  You go in eastern cultures, and I write about this in the book, that is a real negotiating advantage, because from western cultures, we'll just yak, yak, yak and give away more than we wanted to. There's something about being able to be quiet and take it in.  You don't always need to be on stage.  You already know about you, you don't know about the other person, so when you're talking, you're not learning anything.

Helen Tupper: It's really funny, I do think it's better for everybody when there is more silence in the conversation because as the person who's talking, when you pause, you get time to gather your thoughts, so probably what you're saying makes sense.  And as the person who might be listening, you just hear more, you collect more data, when you're ready to come back your conclusions might be sharper; it's better for everybody, but it's definitely something that we struggle in, nerves get in the way, and just a lack of confidence maybe in a conversation, which makes people feel like they have to fill that space.

Kate Murphy: I have a quote in the book from somebody I was talking to about this very issue and she was talking about, people talk to take up the space in a relationship that isn't secure or hasn't really been built up yet, and so they sort of talk through it instead of letting it develop and letting them receive from the other person.  And part of it's just how we've been raised.  You've been raised stay on message, that elevator pitch, present yourself, really perform essentially and really what's behind it is, "Like me, please like me", and we all want to be liked, and we want to show why we're likeable.  That's what keeps people talking, talking, talking, when really what's going to make you likeable is if you can connect with the other person, and you can't connect with the other person if you don't know them and you don't try and find out what they're feeling and what they're thinking.

Helen Tupper: In our second book, You Coach You, we talk about these thinking traps and just listening to you there has made me think probably one that I often have, that good relationships are built on rapport, which makes sense to a point, but then I think it gets in your way; because, if you think about rapport, it's a quick connection, it's a pacey conversation and you're not necessarily creating that space to ask and listen and learn, because it's more about that fast dynamic that creates a quick connection.  But quick connections aren't necessarily deep conversations, or connections that might last longer, because you've listened and learned from each other.

Kate Murphy: It's interesting you say about that rapport.  I feel like what everybody's trying to do is mimic what they've seen on drivetime radio, that "rapport" between the two people and that banter back and forth!  Here, we're having a great conversation.  Or just even on late-night television, where there's just this banter back and forth, like hitting the ball back and forth; that kind of thing, that's not connecting, that's gaming, and that's not really what you want if you want to truly connect and not only just connect personally, but professionally, to know what the other person wants if you're trying to sell them something, or if you're trying to develop ideas, "What does the person know that I don't know?" There's something about creativity that needs to play off something else.  So, being able to take things in and to pace your stuff, it still can be a comfortable and wonderful rhythm, but it isn't that staccato, "I'm on, you're on, I'm on, you're on".  It's really natural, because that's what people see, that's this image of their mind of, this is a conversation, and it's really not; it's performance.

Helen Tupper: And each conversation has a different rhythm.  But if you're having the same rhythm in every conversation and particularly if it's that pacey, drivetime effect, then you've probably got a lot of room to develop your approach to the conversations that you're having.  Really interesting.  And just thinking about that rhythm of the conversation, it makes me think; in the book, you talk about we have these expectations of what makes a good conversation and there are four that are mentioned about the quality. So: expecting the truth, I think I got down; the quantity, so when we're having a conversation together, that I'm getting some new knowledge, but not too much that it feels overwhelming; you mentioned the relation, so the conversation we're having, it feels relevant and it flows logically; and in terms of the manner of the conversation, it's relatively brief, orderly and ambiguous.  When I read those things, quality, quantity, relation and manner, I was thinking, "Gosh, I've probably got quite a lot of work to do in terms of the conversations I'm having!"  I've never thought about those four dimensions like that.

Kate Murphy: I want to give credit where credit is due.  Those come from a British language philosopher and theorist, his name was Paul Grice.  And his idea, and this has been proven not only in western cultures, all cultures, that human beings, without realising it, have certain expectations in conversation.  And when you violate those expectations, and this is subconscious, that's when people stop listening. 

So, when you're talking about the maxim of quality where you expect the truth, somebody lies to you, people shut down.  Anything else you say after that, you have violated this social contract, this bargain.  So again, it's subconscious, but that's when people shut down. Then, quantity is the next one.  You expect to get information that you don't already know, but not so much that you feel overwhelmed.  That gets violated, somebody starts telling you stuff that they've already told you or that you know already, people start to shut down and think about what they're going to eat for dinner later, that kind of thing! Then, relation, is has to be logical and relevant.  I mean, we've all had those conversations where you say something and then the other person comes back with something not related.  And then manner again, it has to be unambiguous, it can't be confusing.  Or if they go on and on and on…  I had lunch with somebody today, I hope they're not listening to this, they're not in the UK, but she would say, "Long story short", and I was like, "Well, it's too late for that!"

Helen Tupper: Short story long!

Kate Murphy: Exactly.  But when you were talking about -- I loved what you were saying, I'm going to jump back just a minute for what you said about the rhythm and maybe looking at the rhythm, if you have the same rhythm with everybody.  The other thing I would add to that that has to do with this quality and quantity and relation and manner, is the script because people fall back on these scripts, what they tell about themselves, what they tell about a project, what they had thought about before they went into the conversation.  If you're developing scripts, then you're really not listening, you're just going to use your script.

Really, wonderful conversations and conversations where you learn is where you're playing off what the other person said.  And so, if you've got script, then you're not going to play off that maxim of relation where it's relevant, there's a logical flow.  And that's part of the great adventure.  But also, I think what stops people from listening is because you're without a net then.  If you get rid of your scripts, you don't have your net any more, and you have to play off what the other person said, and so the conversation could go anywhere.  That's the excitement and the wonder of it for me.  I love it, like where are we going to go? But for other people, it might make them uncomfortable because you never know what's going to come out of people's mouths.  I'm sure we've all had these conversations where people were at work or otherwise, you're like, "Oh my God, I didn't see that coming", where they just needed to tell you something and it came out of nowhere, and that can make some people uncomfortable.  But for me, that's humanity, that's knowing the other person.

Helen Tupper: I guess it's having a more explorative approach to a conversation, you know, what direction is this going to go in, than an assumptive one, which to be honest, if you're having an assumptive approach, you should probably do it over email, just, "Here's some things I need to know, just send me the details!"  It probably doesn't need to be a conversation that you're so deliberately directing. But on that point about assumptions, one of the things that stuck out for me in the book as well was about when we assume things about other people, so we assume what they're going to say, or we have kind of this -- you talk about confirmation bias, so we look for things that assert what we think we know.  So, we're not really listening openly to everything they're saying, we're trying to spot the stuff that we're assuming along the way.  Is that something that happens a lot, affecting the quality of conversations and the quality of people's listening?

Kate Murphy: Very much so because if you've already decided what you want to hear, you will hear what you want to hear.  It's not only just how you listen, but it's also the way you frame questions, the way you present yourself in the conversation.  And just even non-verbally, you will illicit from the other person that confirmation, whether they are aware of it or you are aware of it or not, most of the times not. Questions are really important for a number of reasons because first of all, they keep you motivated and interested. 

Well, first of all, you have to listen to ask a relevant and on-point question, so you've listened to just be able to do that.  But then, after you've asked the question, you're invested in hearing the answer because you came up with it.  So, questions are a really good way to develop your listening skills. But also, on the point of the assumptions, you have to be really careful in the questions that you ask, because you don't want to ask a question like, "Wouldn't you agree?" or, "Don't you think?" because that prompts the other person to confirm, again that confirmation bias, of what you were thinking before, and that's really dangerous in a professional context, because then you're really not going to get the truth; it could be from a customer too.  They're going to try because again, we all want to be liked, to confirm what you want confirmed.  So, it's really important to have these open-ended questions and have no suggestion of trying to get the person to agree with you, or that you're judging somehow in your question like, "Well, shouldn't we hire a consultant?"  You've just said what you want.  Maybe that is good or maybe it's not, but who's going to say, "No"?

Helen Tupper: And you know someone's listening to this podcast now and they're thinking, "Am I or am I not a good listener?  Maybe I thought I was a good listener, but now I'm not sure because of everything that Kate's saying", because I think you could self-assess, but then there's a whole load of bias that you're introducing into that answer of whether or not you're a good listener.  So, do you think it's as simple as asking your colleagues as work, "Do you think I'm a good listener?" or, "On a scale of one to ten, how effectively do you think I listened in our conversation?"  Is it that for people to understand the difference between maybe their intent and their impact in the conversations that they're having?

Kate Murphy: I would hesitate to ask anybody.  I don't think people are totally honest when you say, "Am I good at this or am I bad at this?"  There are so many other things that get in the way, so I'm not sure I would do that for anything.  I think for listening in particular, I tell people that if they want to just start, a springboard to being a better listener is to have in your mind before you go into any conversation two things, that by the time of the end of the conversation you'll be able to answer these two questions.  One is, "What did I learn about the person I'm speaking with?" and number two is, "How did the person feel about what we were talking about?"  If you get to the end of the conversation and you can't answer those two questions, you probably need to work on your listening. 

So, that's one self-assessment you can do right there. But there's also that feeling, are you connecting; are you understanding?  And when you respond to someone, is there a light in their eye; are they saying yes?  One of the things I love to hear from people, which just makes me feel like I've done my job as a journalist, is when people say, "You know, I've never thought about it that way before, but this is how I feel", you know, when you ask that type of question; or, "I've never told anyone that before and I didn't know I felt that way until I just said it".  When you're getting those types of responses that are thoughtful, and you can kind of feel it behind your solar plexus when you've connected with someone, and this doesn't mean you necessarily end up liking them or they're going to be your best friend, but you understand.  And so, if you feel like you really understand where the other person was coming from, then I think that's your self-assessment. If you feel like you're still in the dark, maybe you didn't ask enough questions, or you didn't ask the right questions, or you weren't listening.

Helen Tupper: I really like those questions that people can take away and just reflect on the end of the day, "What are the conversations I've had and what did I learn about the person and how did they feel afterwards?"  And, when you were talking there about being a journalist and people playing that back to you, it made me think about, there are some podcasts that I like to listen to, and sometimes I listen to the people that run those podcasts; there's one called How to Fail, which is a really popular podcast, run by a journalist called Elizabeth Day.  She is absolutely amazing at asking questions and then sitting in silence.

I think I learnt a lot about what good listening sounds like by listening to that podcast because hearing her ask that powerful question, a bit like you were saying you feel like you've done it right when you do that and people play it back to you, I hear her ask those questions and then just sit in that silence.  I'm just thinking about people listening to this who maybe want some examples of what good looks like, and obviously they might find that at work.  But to that point that we said earlier, the way that work is, sometimes there aren't loads of good examples at work about what this might look like unfortunately; that's really bad!  But it might not be a great ground for getting this insight. But I think there are some amazing podcasts, for example, where you can really hear the silence and the power of that question, and how those pauses can unlock a lot more insight, like you were saying earlier.

Kate Murphy: Yes.  And also just even when you are seeing bad, is actually helpful too.  So, listen to those drivetime radio shows and see the difference to see, "Okay, that's bad".  Or just look at questions with the Prime Minister where they're just yelling over each other; that's bad too.  I mean, that's what we hold up as our model, that somebody can hold their own and toss these witticisms out, or cut the other person down, and that's not good listening, that's not a good conversation.  So, to look at the bad as well as the good is a way to really see how to do it better yourself.

Helen Tupper: I always find that really uncomfortable, like you say, Prime Minister's Question Time.  And then, there's a brilliant radio show in the UK called LBC, where it gets quite political, gets quite antsy.  If I listen to that, sometimes it makes me feel a little bit stressed, but I guess listening to a conversation from outside of it can help you to observe some of the things that we're talking about together and just collect a little bit of data on what that experience might feel like, and take that into your own conversations and think, "I don't want my conversations to feel antsy and aggressive, so I need to make sure that I'm listening and creating that space, where there's sort of a lot more learning going on really.

Kate Murphy: Another one to look at is, I don't know in the UK, but in the United States, we have a lot of late-night television programmes where there are interviews and I mean there's just no listening going on at all.  Everybody's got their script, everybody's trying to perform.  Or really, I think the other thing that I've noticed more just lately is, I feel like when I'm talking to somebody, that they're filming a TikTok video and they're not really talking to me, but they're doing this performance.  It's really an odd thing as you're listening to them, and you might as well not even be there. So, that's just another thing, to just look at what other people are doing and if that makes you feel empty inside, figure out what that is so you don't do it yourself.

Helen Tupper: Gosh, Kate, do you know, it's really hard talking to you about this and not at the same time thinking, "Oh, no, are the conversations that I'm having an absolute disaster because I'm doing some of these things?"  In the book as well, the other thing, the confronting moment in the book, was there's a little bit that talks about bad listening behaviours, and I wonder if you could share some of those?  When I was reading them in the book, I was like, "Uh-oh, there's another one I fall victim to!"  So, maybe for the benefit of our listeners, would you maybe share some of those bad listening behaviours that maybe we should be a little bit more aware of?

Kate Murphy: It's funny, because when I did the interviews for the book, I asked everyone, "What does it mean to be a good listener?" and they would just look at me blankly, nobody could tell me.  And then when I'd say, "What does it mean to be a bad listener; what does that look like?" and I mean, people could rattle them off, just rattle them off, and what does that tell you?  They have more experience of not being listened to, to being really, genuinely, rewardingly heard. So, for the bad listening examples, the classics that everybody throws out, that everybody knows but really, take it into account when you're talking to someone, it's the phone. 

Don't look at it, of course, during the conversation; but also, I bring up research in the book about even the presence of the phone on the table, as it's always there in meetings, at restaurants, it's always there.  But even if you tell people it's off, I mean they did this with thousands of people on different gatherings, and asked them not only subjectively, but objectively, looked at the conversations they had, and when the phone was out and visible, it made people have less interesting, less self-disclosure, less everything you would want in a conversation, just because the phone is there. There's something subconsciously that when people see it there, they don't feel like delving into anything meaningful.  So, it's this weird, horrible spiral of the phone being there, so the other person says something that's not worth listening to, which makes you stop listening to, which makes you want to have your phone; so, we'll leave the phone aside.  And believe me, I love my smartphone as much as anybody else, but it is an impediment. The other thing is, look people in the eye.  I mean, your mother always told you that. 

It is so true on so many different levels, and mainly for things that you don't even know that you're picking up when you look at the other person.  I talk in the book about how there are these subtle colour changes that happen in people's faces.  It doesn't matter your ethnicity, your skin tone, there are these slight gradations of changes of blood flow, and we have all these little capillaries next to the surface of our skin on our face that you are noticing and that are emotional signatures.  Again, it's not conscious, but you're picking up so much about how the person is feeling and logging that away somewhere in your brain and if you're not looking at them, you miss that; not to mention all the tiny, little micro-expressions. Of course, there are smiles and frowns and other little things that you can pick up, but there's so much under the hood that you're picking up of just little twitches that you cannot see but nevertheless, again, you're logging it in your databank and it's helping you understand and connect and sync with the other person. 

So, look at people, really look at them, not like a creepy death stare, but look at people, openly look at people.  That's the other thing; don't be looking around the room. Then the other thing, which everybody does and it's just human, because our brains can process so much more information and so much faster than another person can talk.  So, you've got all this excess brain energy here, capacity, and this other person's not filling it up, and so what do you do? 

You start thinking about, "Okay, I've got to do this later and I've got to pick up milk on the way home from work", and the fight that you had with a spouse earlier, or whatever, goes on in your head. So, a way to combat that is, if you think about a conversation as something like meditation, and the other person -- in meditation, you concentrate on your breathing, or maybe a mantra and when your thoughts drift, you come back to that.  Whereas, in a conversation, just acknowledge that your thoughts are going somewhere else and then return to focus, just come back just like you would with your breathing or your mantra and meditation. 

And anybody who's started with meditation will tell you it's really hard in the beginning; it's a skill, again, it's a skill, so you'll get better at it the more you do it. That's another thing I tell people is just do it!  You'll fail all the time, but just keep these things in mind like, "Oh, I'm drifting again, go back".  Also, don't be afraid to stop and ask a question.  You feel like, "Oh God, okay, I'm lost", get them to rewind, it's really okay.  Just say, "I missed what you said a moment ago, would you mind repeating that?"  You don't have to say, "I wasn't listening" or, "I was thinking about getting milk later"!  And don't be afraid if you get thrown out of the conversation and you realise, "Okay, there's something I've missed there", just say, "Oh, I really want to --"  The thing is, it really enriches the relationship, because the other person realises that she or he really wants to know what I'm saying.  And when you say, "You know, I didn't quite get that.  Tell me that again?"  So, that's another thing. But when we were talking about bad listening habits, I think those are the major ones.  If you can start with those, and I talk about a lot more in the book, but if you can start with those, I think that would be really helpful.

Helen Tupper: I think the meditation thing really resonates with me, I've not thought about it like that before, because I think I've tried and failed a few times with meditating, but that the brain goes away but then bringing it back, and I think that does sometimes happen in conversations, but maybe not beating yourself up too much for that, just recognising it and then coming back to the conversation.  And hopefully the more that you do that, the more conscious of it you can become. I was having a moment with Sarah today.  So, Sarah and I were in a studio today filming, and I had this slightly surreal moment when I was doing this thing with Sarah and then recalling something that was in your book, which was a bit weird!  So, we were filming, cameras in front of us, we are filming career content for companies that we work with.  And the way it works is, Sarah will talk for a few minutes and then I'll talk. 

And to keep that dynamic going, we kind of share the conversation and a camera, so no one gets too bored of our voices. But what it requires, and I realised when I was doing it, what it requires is really, really good listening, because I have to know -- Sarah and I don't really script that.  We know roughly what we're talking about and who's saying what.  But if Sarah forgets something and needs me to pick it up, I have to listen really intently so that we don't have to stop the film and start all over again, because that's really, really frustrating when you've done it a few times.  And I'm like, "Oh, this is what Kate was saying", because you mentioned, and I'd love to share it with people listening because I think this is a brilliant team exercise, you talk about an improv exercise that people can do where they can practise this listening ability. I felt like, to some extent, that I was doing that with Sarah today, where I was really listening so that I was ready to pick it up, pick up that conversation at whatever point that she stopped it.  And with that in mind, if you could just share that improv exercise that you talk about in the book that can help teams develop their listening skills and abilities?

Kate Murphy: Are you talking about the storytelling one, because I talk about --

Helen Tupper: Yeah, that one.

Kate Murphy: Okay, yeah, that's such a great one.  How it works is that the person who's running the workshop, because I went to Second City in Chicago to their improv training, and what they do, it's called a storytelling exercise, and it happened to be a he in this instance; and what you do is he actually started out and just started it out with something like, I don't know, "A rabbit runs in the woods", and then points at somebody, anybody; it's not in order, just points at somebody and they need to pick up the story from there.  The next person will say a few things and then another person has to pick up the story and it has to make sense.  You can't say after, "There was a rabbit in the woods" say, "Then I went to the grocery store!"  It has to have a narrative to it, and you really have to be listening.

The thing that people do is they think ahead and they think about how they want the story to turn out, and they never know when they're going to be called on.  And when it gets to them, the person in front could have totally taken the story in another direction.  So, you really have to listen to what the person said, and also not be committed again to your own script of the clever thing that you had come up with to present to everybody, and that's what makes the best story, when everybody's paying attention and everybody's contributing, but building on what the person previously had said and not thinking ahead.  And they're wonderful; the stories you come out with are wonderful and beautiful and fun and you feel so connected to the other people. That's the other outcome, is there's just this connection, because everybody was so on each other's wavelength, just on bated breath of what the next person was going to say.

Helen Tupper: I think it's a really nice team activity, both to raise the point that listening is really important, that we can all get better at it; and then, to learn as a team, I always think that is so important.  But I have to say, Kate, I sort of tried a variation of this with my children and I'm not sure they're listening, because I think they basically want the end of every story to basically be poo!  I mean, they're 8 and 6, so poo is really, really funny for them and any way that I start a story just ends up, "And then they stood in poo!" and I'm like, "Guys, come on, listen and be a bit more creative!"  But they're 8 and 6.

Kate Murphy: That's an interesting script!

Helen Tupper: Yeah, they definitely need a new script, they need to move on from that.  So, just to close this out now, hopefully people are listening and they're really into this and they think, "Yes, I'm going to do something", and you have shared loads of things, those questions for people to reflect on and maybe just to spot and maybe stop some of those bad behaviours, and the biases and some of the assumptions that we might be making. But I guess if you had one piece of advice for someone who's saying, "I see how important this is and I realise that this is something that I could focus on and improve", what would you recommend that somebody did this week differently that you think could help improve their listening at work?

Kate Murphy: Gosh, I think really it's just keep in mind that when you engage with someone, your behaviour, your listening does two things: it helps or hinders your understanding; two, it strengths or weakens the relationship.  So, to be mindful when you go into a conversation, that it's how I am listening, responding, because responding is a big part of listening and the questions you ask, are you helping or hindering your understanding by the way I'm behaving in this conversation; and am I strengthening or weakening the relationship?  I think those are two things. But actually, not that I'm thinking about it, there's one more thing I want to tell people, that also think about your opportunities to listen, we haven't talked about that. 

So often, people are diminishing their opportunities to listen by keeping their head down, earbuds in, just whatever they're doing is preventing someone from telling them something, and you miss so much when you do always have your head in your phone, or you always have something in your ears, because then people don't feel like they can approach you. So, there's so many opportunities that you miss when you close yourself off like that and don't make eye contact and just keep your office door shut all the time, not to say there totally are valid times and reasons to do that.  But if you find yourself doing that all the time, try and think about what you might be missing.

Helen Tupper: I really love that.  There's the practice of listening, which we've talked a lot about, but there's putting yourself in a position to listen, which is that point that you just raised there, and I think it's really how much in your day you're putting yourself in a position to listen, where people basically want to talk to you and feel comfortable talking to you, is a really interesting, different take on listening that I hadn't thought of before.

Kate Murphy: You know, I'm from the American South and it's a part of hospitality.  It's just being open to receive.  So, part of it is just your demeanour but also again, are you available; are you making yourself available, whether it's your physical positioning, or how you are carrying yourself, or what you have in your ears, or what you're looking at?  Look up every once in a while, see who might want to talk to you.

Helen Tupper: That is an amazing way to end, "Look up, everyone, once in a while and see who might want to talk to you".  That is my quote of the podcast, Kate, and I think that's really, really going to stick with me.  Thank you so much for taking the time to talk and I hope that you feel that I've heard the things you've got to say.  And I'm absolutely sure that our listeners have taken so much away from this conversation, so huge appreciation for spending some time on Squiggly with us.

Kate Murphy: You have nothing to worry about, Helen, you're a wonderful listener!

Helen Tupper: I've loved talking, I feel I've got a lot to reflect on personally as well, so thank you so much for that.

Kate Murphy: Thank you for your interest, I really enjoyed talking to you; you made me think about some things.

Helen Tupper: Thank you so much for listening today, I hope you found it interesting.  I absolutely loved talking to Kate.  I reflected a lot in the moment and there's definitely some things I want to do differently as a result of our conversation, which I always feel like that's the power, right?  You're listening enough that you learn and do something differently.  So, hopefully that happened for you as well.  Sarah and I will be back together for another topic on the podcast next week.  Thanks so much for listening, everyone.  Bye for now.