Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:00:59: What is a portfolio career?
00:02:36: Moving away from career ladders
00:03:49: Examples of portfolio careers
00:06:59: Benefits of a portfolio career
00:12:56: The "why": coach-yourself questions
00:14:12: The "what"…
00:14:32: …1: personalise your portfolio career
00:16:11: …2: consider your boundaries
00:19:04: The "how"…
00:19:14: …1: start where you are
00:22:07: …2: build your brand
00:27:39: …3: plan your pattern
00:30:09: …4: balance risk vs reliability
00:32:58: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where every week we share ideas for action and tools to try out that we hope will help you, and pretty much always us, to navigate our Squiggly Careers with a bit more confidence, clarity and control.

Helen Tupper: And this week, we are talking about how to have a portfolio career, which is a topic inspired by some work we're doing with the Department for Education all around portfolio careers, and we went out to our community on Instagram and we said, "Would you like us to do a podcast topic on this a bit more broadly?" and pretty much everyone, I think it might have been 100% yes!  We asked what the questions people had were, and some of it was really basic like, "What is a portfolio career?" and some of it was like, "How do I talk about this with my manager?" and "How do I balance incomes?" and all that kind of stuff.

So, today we're going to get really, really practical about portfolio careers, starting with what it actually means.

Sarah Ellis: So I think this is actually a really good question from our community, because I think portfolio careers used to mean, when you're very senior, you stop doing and spending all of your time on one job, and you start spending your time on a number of jobs at the same time, and it felt like that was something you almost transitioned to, and it became almost a career stage for certain people, usually at certain points in the career ladder.  So, I think one of the things that we've got to do with this idea of portfolio careers is unlearn that that's what a portfolio career looks like.

In its simplest definition, I think it's probably, "How are you spending the hours that you work every week?" and I think the difference between them with a singular career and a portfolio career is, you're doing one thing all of that time; or, are you doing multiple things during that time, or would you like to be doing multiple things during that time?

Helen Tupper: So to build on Sarah's point, I think that traditional view is that maybe you do three days a week in one job and then you do two days in another, so you're making up a five-day working week.  But I don't think people think about the traditional five-day working week now, and they don't think about nine-to-five either.  So, I think actually this could extend into your evenings maybe, it could be a mixture of different things, it could be doing a bit of part-time work and then maybe some freelancing.  There's essentially a lot of flexibility in a portfolio career to manage your work in a way that is as individual as you are.

I think really it's just not about so depending your income and your development on one company and one role, I think that's the gist of it.

Sarah Ellis: And what's really interesting, I was re-reading an article by a lady called April Rinne, and actually I'd read it before because very kindly, she references Squiggly Careers in this HBR article.  And one of the things that she was talking about is career portfolios within the same organisation.  You might still be spending all of your time in one company during your week, but do you do some different things during that week, or as we would sometimes describe it, maybe transferring your talents, or squiggle and stay. 

That article is worth a read, because she talks about encouraging organisations to stop offering career ladders and start offering career portfolios.  And I think there's a lot of overlap in some of the things that we definitely think about and consider, and some of her perspectives and some of the things that she's recommending that we could experiment with or try out.

Helen Tupper: I think that's a really interesting way of thinking about it in a company.  So we often, in our sessions, talk about career possibilities, and it's about having these multiple moves you can make, the different directions you can develop in.  But if you thought in companies about having portfolio careers, rather than just a single career path, I think that would open it up much more.  Like, in one company, what does your portfolio career look like?  You could have a really interesting conversation about that, I think.

Sarah Ellis: So, to make this really personal in terms of our experience of portfolio careers, we both have portfolio careers today that look and feel a bit different that we'll talk about, but I think I first started having what we would consider now a portfolio career when I worked a four-day week at Sainsbury's, so I stopped working five days at one place, and at that point I then spent one day a week doing something different.  And actually, we'll come back to it, I didn't really have a brilliant definition of what doing something different looked and felt like.  It didn't have the clarity of, "I'm spending one day a week building a business", or, "I'm spending one day a week launching a new idea". 

It was almost the space, and back to Helen's point about freedom and flexibility just to do something different, and we'll talk about that; obviously it has some really big considerations in terms of how you put boundaries in place to do that, financially what that looks like.  But that was my first experience of a four-day week.  I now work a five-day week for Amazing If so on paper, all of my working week is Amazing If; but I do also co-chair an advisory board for the Mayor of London about affordable and accessible workspace.  So almost integrated into my role at Amazing If is co-chairing something that is very different to my day-to-day.  So, that's almost within my working week, rather than separate.

I guess, given that it's our company, we have the ability to design that and make that work without having to think, "I need to then change my days from five days to four-and-a-half days to accommodate that.

Helen Tupper: I think I had a slightly flawed portfolio career when I was at Microsoft and I think it's important to talk about this, because we are going to talk about some practical ways that you can have an effective portfolio career.  But I think my ineffective way of managing it, when I was at Microsoft and I knew I wanted to do different things and I wanted to develop in different directions, I think I was slightly conflicted in my career because I had this slightly high-achieving corporate thing that was taking up five days a week, then I was working on Amazing If, and I was trying to navigate myself to a different future.

I remember I was also starting to work for Hoxby Collective to develop a slightly different proposition for them about futureproofing.  So at the same time, I was doing a five-day-a-week job and working on our things, which at the time we were writing a book and the podcast and a few sessions we were using our holiday for, and then trying to create myself some different opportunities at Hoxby.  And the reason I saw it was slightly flawed was because I think what I should probably have done in hindsight, it's a wonderful thing, is talk to Microsoft about how I could have managed the mix a bit more.  But I didn't because I don't think I was confident enough to, because I was a bit worried about what they would think or what they would say, or that it would compromise my ambitions, all that kind of fear.

So, all I did was create a bit of portfolio pressure by trying to do all these things at once, which I think is what we're really trying to avoid here.  Actually, that would have been an amazing mix for me to have had; some corporate stuff, working on our business, and then getting the opportunity to put my ideas into something someone else wanted to do would have been an amazing mix, but I probably compromised myself in order to do that, and I don't think that's what we're suggesting.

Sarah Ellis: So, some of the benefits of this portfolio approach to your Squiggly Career, and I think it is important to say it's not for everyone, and it's not something you have to do or something you think you should do as part of a Squiggly Career; it's definitely a choice and it might be a choice you make for a bit and then you come back to, and then you change along the way.  So, you might listen to this podcast today and think, "That's not for me", and I think that's a really good outcome, because you're increasing your clarity around your career.

I think it works probably for both Helen and me because one of my values is variety, and one of Helen's values is freedom.  I think given you only have three or four core values, given both of those words make it into those three or four things that are most important to us, you start to see why this sense of portfolio-ness in our working week feels important.

So, some of the good things about portfolio careers, you definitely get the opportunity to stretch your strengths in different ways, in different situations.  You use your strengths with new people, in a new context, in a new environment.  You might increase your income; I think this depends a bit on what you're doing and why you're doing it.  Clearly, if you're volunteering for something that tends to not be paid or perhaps not particularly well paid, you might get to cover your costs.  But if you were thinking more about doing two part-time roles, for example, and we recently have had quite a few people apply to work with us on some different roles, where they are doing multiple part-time roles; obviously that financial mix works for them.

It definitely increases your career resilience.  So, you know often people talk about employability and upskilling and reskilling, and they can feel like quite vague words, I think, in terms of, "Okay, so what does that mean?"  But I think the more that we are adaptable and broaden our experiences and our skillset, the more we are able to squiggle with success.  So when maybe uncertainty and change comes our way we hadn't anticipated, I do think sometimes a portfolio career can put you in a position where, in lots of ways, you've kind of spread your risk a little bit more, rather than put all of your energy and efforts into one thing.

Helen Tupper: It's interesting reflecting a little bit on this, because I'm so attracted to portfolio careers because of all the variety you get and the different things that you get to work on; and I remember when I was working on Amazing If full time, early days, like 2018, and my husband said to me, "There's no way this is going to keep you interested enough.  One thing is not going to be enough", because for quite a while I'd done different things.  And I think that I now don't seek -- I mean, I do work for a charity, but I don't seek so much of a portfolio career because I have so much variety in what we do, from writing to podcasting to the work we do with -- there's just so many different things that we do, so I get a lot of the variety that I need.

But for me, before that, maybe when I felt -- I loved what I did in corporate life, but maybe it was a bit samey, like my Monday felt like a Wednesday; similar meetings with similar people debating similar things and sending similar emails at similar times of the evening, that kind of vibe!  And actually, the different things I did introduced some variety into my role.  So I do think portfolio careers do give you that variety, and it's not like you're making a career commitment forever.  It might just be something that works for you right now.

All these titles and labels that we apply, whether you're working as a freelancer, or you're having a portfolio career, or you're working full time, you don't have to be fixed in any of this stuff forever.  I just think it gives you flexibility to do something different for your development, and that's all this is, it's a different option for you and different opportunity.

Sarah Ellis: And one of the things that April says in that article that we recommend you have a read of, she talks about it as, "Portfolios are about curating a portfolio of skills and services and futureproofing a career.  It's about intentionally creating and curating a career that changes and evolves over time".  So, I think you start to see lots of those similar threads and themes.  And one of the things that I would say, before we get into the practical whys, whats and hows of portfolio careers, is if you're unsure, you do learn a lot from the process of exploring a portfolio career.

Often, that sense of just experimenting with it all, making sure, you know, if you're in that position of, "I don't know what I don't know", even maybe applying or having some of the conversations that we're going to talk about can be really useful.  It could really help you to figure out that it's not for you, you might get even more excited.  And I've applied for a few portfolio roles, or a few roles that would add to what I do at the moment, that I haven't been successful in; they've been roles that you apply for.  And I don't regret any of those.  I made some new connections, it gave me the opportunity to think about what career skills and transferable talents I've got.  I actually enjoyed the process of thinking, "How else and who else could I be useful for?" 

Almost whether then you end up quite doing that thing or not, I think you do learn a lot along the way because typically, when you're thinking about portfolio, you are having to put yourself in different places, you're walking in different shoes, you're spending time with very different people.  So, I think it just challenges you in a way that is very different, to Helen's point in terms of the day-to-day-ness that we all get quite used to, and often feels most comfortable for us.

Helen Tupper: I think that links back really nicely to the Department for Education research that they have just done, which says that, "Half of adults in England would consider developing a portfolio career.  But for 45% of people, confidence is a bit of a barrier".  So, what Sarah was talking about there was almost, don't always think about action, prioritise curiosity first, like what could this look like; who could you talk to?  You're not necessarily making a commitment, you're just exploring the opportunity, and that's very much what we're trying to help you to do here.

So, we've split the podcast now into the why, the what and the how.

Sarah Ellis: So, for the why, there are some coach-yourself questions that we think will support your self-awareness about whether a portfolio career is right for you right now.  And I think the right now is important because just because you don't want to do it today, or you might think you'd like to do it today but there are some other factors that are stopping you or getting in your way, this doesn't mean you couldn't rediscover this or come back to this in a year's time or in 18 months' time.  So, I don't think this is the hard and fast, once you've made a decision you've got to stick with it.  I think you can absolutely reserve the right to change your mind.  But this might just help you to get started.

So, five coach-yourself questions for you.  Question 1: if I was describing my perfect portfolio career, what would an average week look like?  Question 2: what would I gain from a portfolio career?  Question 3: what would I be giving up or compromising on if I had a portfolio career?  Question 4: who already has a portfolio career that I admire and could learn from?  Question 5: how does a portfolio career fit with my strengths and values?

Helen Tupper: So, moving on from the why, we need to get into the what.  And I guess the why is all about the insights into why this might be a good thing for you, or not to be honest; you might come out of that and go, "This doesn't work for me", and that's fine too.  But let's imagine it does.  Maybe you're like, "Yes, I think this could be good, I think it would fit with my strengths and values and there's lots of things that I could gain from doing this".  If you get into the what now and the implications, it's really important to personalise your portfolio career.  I think that's one of the big benefits, is that your portfolio career probably doesn't look like anybody else's because of the mix that you're managing.

So, a few things for you to think about in plotting your portfolio career.  Number one, the talents you could transfer.  So, for example, I would think about one of my talents that I could transfer is my ability to catalyse an idea.  I can move things forward fast and I can transfer that to whether I was working in a start-up or a corporate. 

The second thing is who you know that could help you.  Plot those people out.  There are certain people I think that are great at making introductions, that know a lot of people, that might exist in worlds that you're not; they can be really, really useful for you managing your portfolio. 

Three is the mix that might work for you.  There definitely isn't "one size fits all".  So, you could do what Sarah did, like four days in a more corporate role like she did in Sainsbury's, and one day on your own thing; you could do a three and a two; you could work in the day and the evening.  I just think try to identify as many variations as you can, because that means you'll be more open to what this could look like for you.

Then, number four when you're plotting your portfolios is just to write down the constraints that you're working with.  That might be income, you might have a base level of income that everything that you plot together needs to work towards; or, it could be location; it might be timings, there might be certain times of the day that you need to work within.  But being really clear about your constraints means that you don't compromise them, which I think is something that I got wrong when I did this myself.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and for me, we mentioned money a few times, and I think money matters for all of us.  I remember when I was working out the four-day week with Sainsbury's, I did it in a very straightforward, took a 20% pay cut, way.  But I had figured out, almost as part of my portfolio plotting, I had figured out at that time, I could afford to do that.  Also, I liked the cleanness and the boundaries that came with that, because I think one of the challenges with portfolios is how do you create -- boundaries are hard for all of us already, and then you're almost adding something additional that probably makes boundaries even harder.

People often ask me about that, they're like, "Did you not end up working on that extra day?" and I think almost because I was -- funnily enough, you know we work in the evenings and you think, obviously you're not getting paid for that and you never really question that; but when you've got a day when you're not getting paid for it, you're like, "Oh no, well I don't get paid for that day".

Helen Tupper: You are so good at that generally though.  When we're writing a book, you don't let other things creep in, whereas I'm rubbish at it.  So, maybe there is another thing about your working preference and profile.  I think you are so good at being focused and boundaried that I think that's a strength that plays into a portfolio career.  And if you're someone like me that just isn't, I think you just have to recognise that, because it might be a bit harder for you to manage.  Remember when you did that and then not long after, I did compressed hours and it was a disaster!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I really remember you doing compressed hours!

Helen Tupper: All I did was apologise to everybody because I felt like I wasn't doing anything in the way I wanted to do.  So, do I think it is a bit of a, what is your general working preference?  If you can be boundaried about how you're working, I think this could be a really good fit for you.  If you find that really hard, it doesn't mean it won't work, but that might need to be an area of something for you to work on.

Sarah Ellis: And also, who are you surrounded by?  I like to think I take a bit of credit for doing a good job at that time of having good boundaries.  And as you said, it is something that does come naturally to me.  But I also worked for a brilliant boss, I was surrounded by a really strong team in an organisation that I really enjoyed working in.  So, I can imagine it feels very different; I didn't experience people then putting me under pressure to work on the day that I didn't work, and actually that day changed over time, because I did four-day weeks in two different companies.  But actually, in either of those companies, there was never any expectation of, you know the, "Could you just come to this meeting?" or, "Can you just reply to these emails?" 

Now, some of that is a bit about you and if you do get asked those questions, how you respond.  But I think if you find that's happening repeatedly, that's really hard for you then, isn't it, because you're having to say no a lot.  So, I am also very grateful for both of the companies actually I worked with when I did do four-day weeks, they really respected almost that choice, that choice for me to have a portfolio career.

Helen Tupper: So, we're going to move on now to the how.  So, perhaps you've listened and you think, "Yes, this does sound like something I would like to discover and explore a bit further", so we need to get practical.  So, number one is about starting where you are, "What do you want to move from and to?"  You don't have to rip up everything you've done so far and start from scratch.  In fact, starting from where you are often reduces the risk a little bit.

So for example, if I go back to what I wish I'd done in hindsight when I was at Microsoft, it probably would have been better for me to find the flexibility in the role that I was already doing, so could I do that in four days or three days, for example, to create the space to do something else.  What that does mean is that it might be more of a slow pivot, because you're probably going to have to influence some people internally about the job that you're doing.  But there's sort of a security in the slowness too; you get more time to explore and it doesn't necessarily feel like you're leaping into something completely un-new.

I would say, rather than completely jumping into two or three different roles, start with where you are, find the flex that might exist today.  And when you're doing that as well, do the maths, the bit that Sarah mentioned.  Just work out what you could compromise on in terms of the money that comes in, like where is your baseline, because that can give you a little bit more flexibility as well.  So for example, when I was thinking about Microsoft, I looked at, could I take a quarter off my salary so that I could do some different things; and what would that mean that I was compromising in my life?  Sometimes, in order to create your initial flexibility, I do think you need to make some choices along the way.  But I'm so grateful for the choices that I made as a result of doing that.

Sarah Ellis: And I do think I'm seeing people being more creative as well about what that portfolio-ness looks like.  I know four-day weeks are talked about a lot and they're popular in the press, people write about them a lot because there's lots of experiments happening about four-day weeks.  But maybe it's a nine-day fortnight.  I actually know quite a lot of people who've done very successful nine-day fortnights, so you work a five and then a four; I've known quite a few people who, maybe because they were studying for something, or they'd just got something they wanted to spend some time on, it was either half a day a week, or it was one day a month.

You know sometimes we anchor ourselves in what we can see elsewhere and what maybe other people do, I would really recommend almost starting with that blank piece of paper and thinking, in your dream scenario, what are the changes?  Usually there are some changes about time and money that you need to consider here.  What are the time and money changes that you feel would help you to be at your best?  When I first did that four-day week, which actually is nearly ten years ago now, nobody else really did it, it was very unusual and I was creating it from scratch, just feeling like that was the best option for me. 

So, don't feel afraid to create something that no one has done before.  To Helen's point, it might take a bit longer, you might have to do a bit more persuading, but just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean that you couldn't be the first one.

Helen Tupper: The second how is all about building your brand and the reason you want to do this is because it acts as a bit of a pull for your portfolio possibilities.  So, this is where you think about, what is it you want to be known for, regardless of what you're working on or where you're working, the skills, the strengths, the talents that you want to be known for; and then really thinking about how do you make that stand out.  That could be on the platforms that people might see or engage with you.

On LinkedIn for example, if you want to be known for, I don't know, creativity for example, what are you putting out regularly on a platform like LinkedIn where people see your creativity and they associate you with it?  Or, I have people that I used to work with years ago, a lady called Kate Ainscough, I wonder if she'll listen to this!  I used to work with her in innovation at Eon like, gosh, 13, 14 years ago.  And she will still relatively regularly put on LinkedIn things about innovation, so I associate her with that skill now.  I mean, I did then, but I do now because it's years on, because she still consistently talks about it as part of her brand.

But it could be platforms, it could be projects, like what are the projects that you might be working consistently on that really help you to show up with those strengths?  It could also be people, when you're thinking about your brand, thinking about the people that you stand with, not just what makes you stand out, but who do you stand with, what communities are you part of that reinforce that perception of your brand?

Sarah Ellis: And I think one of the things that's really important to practise as part of pulling these portfolio possibilities towards you, is sharing your story of what you'd like to do and why.  So, I've got some brilliant mentors along the way who've always really helped me when I've thought about portfolio opportunities.  But to help them to help you, I think you have to be specific about first of all sharing a bit maybe about your Squiggly story so far, how you've got to where you've got to, and that hopefully is highlighting or shining a bit of spotlight on some of those strengths, some of those things you want to be known for that Helen talked about, some of those transferable talents. 

Then being able to connect the dots to why is this thing interesting for you, especially if it is something different to where you are, people need sometimes a bit of help, I think, with that connecting the dots.  It might be really clear to you, but I think don't assume other people know that you would love to volunteer for that thing, or you'd really like to get involved in that project for half a day a week if you could do that, and do a bit less of your day job.  We have to almost practise, I think, being a bit explicit, which can feel uncomfortable, because none of us like to do weird sentences where we're saying, "The things I am great at are… and that is because…" because that just sounds really formal and inauthentic; we're never going to do it.

But I think if you can think about some examples of things you've really enjoyed so far, or maybe some skills you want to rediscover, and just consider how are you sharing what it is that you would like to do in your portfolio career.  I remember a few people asking me a question about why I wanted to do something and not really having a good answer, and then actually thinking about that a bit more deeply.  For example, a few of the skills that I had when I was in more of my corporate career, I didn't want to lose those skills. 

So, one of the things that I am good at and really enjoy is facilitating a group of people who are all more expert than me; basically built a career on it for quite a long time!  Being the generalist in the room, I'm very happy not being the person who knows the most, and I'm comfortable and confident in those situations.  I really enjoy chairing and making sure that everybody gets heard, and making sure people contribute and make sure we've got clear actions, almost steering people through a conversation.  And I don't use that skill in the same way anymore in Amazing If.  There's less need for it, we're with different kinds of people doing very different kinds of work.

So, one of the things I wanted to look for in my portfolio career alongside Amazing If, where I spend most of my time, is thinking, "How can I chair or contribute to a board using some of those leadership or conversation skills, because I don't want to lose them?"  They're something I enjoy, they're something I'm good at and I can see they're not part of my day-to-day, and it's why I love co-chairing.  So, I co-chair the board that I'm part of, and that works brilliantly for me because I think I bring lots of those behaviours, about hopefully making sure that people all feel like they're contributing, making sure we have got clear actions, and my co-chair is a real expert.  So, between us, I hope we're a really good team.

Actually, when I've looked at other volunteer roles, or maybe other trustee roles, I often am attracted to more the chairing of those groups, because I can see my transferable talents when they talk about what they're looking for.  Whereas, there might be some other ones that I think, "I don't think I'll be as useful there, I don't think I'll have as much value to add".  So I think just thinking about, what is your story in terms of why you do what you do today, and what's your story in terms of why you want to do more of one thing and maybe a bit less of something else.

Helen Tupper: I think there's an interesting insight in there as well, which is it's taken Sarah quite a while to come to those insights about what it is that she enjoys doing and what she wants to be known for as part of her building her brand.  So, if a portfolio career is something you're intrigued by, but it doesn't feel relevant for you right now, you can still gather a lot of that insight around, "What is it that I really enjoy?  And when I am ready for it, what are the things that I'd really like to be known for?" because that is what this is all about, using that insight to make these decisions about your development.

So, the third one is about planning your pattern.  I won't talk about this too long because I think we've referenced it quite a lot, mainly for the mistakes that I made and the things that Sarah did well, but you've got to work out what work pattern works for you; what does that mix look like; and then once you've defined what that looks like, it is about being boundaried about it.  I think that is partly in terms of what you communicate to other people, but I think it's partly in terms of what you manage yourself. 

Personally, I think Sarah is very good at both communicating her boundaries to other people like, "This is when I'm doing this, this is what I'm doing and I won't be doing that at that time", but also then staying true to that.  Whereas, I'm definitely not as clear at communicating as Sarah.  I get a little bit woolly, I sort of say, "I'm sort of not doing that that day, but if you want to get in touch you can".  But then I'm also very woolly, I get involved in different things.  Sarah for me is my best practice in terms of boundaries, and I think it is really important, because you want to avoid what happened to me, which is being over-stretched, which doesn't really work for anyone.

I think when you're managing a portfolio career, you are working for more people and you're working with more people.  So, you overstretching yourself not only doesn't work for you, it probably doesn't work for the other people that you're trying to do this with too.  So, I think it is really important that you plan that working pattern.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I think it is worth acknowledging that this is not about doing more, this is about probably doing things differently.  I do think I have been guilty of this in the past, you know when you sort of layer another thing that you're volunteering for, another thing that you say yes to, and it's more and more and more, and that is where you do get to your burnout, you've said yes to too much.  And there was probably a point in my career where I could say yes a lot, and I'd got a lot less constraints, certainly family, a lot less family constraints and commitments.

Whereas, I think over time, I did start to realise, I'm at my best when I have variety, but equally that doesn't mean you just say yes to everything, because otherwise you just end up, you work more, your days and your nights and your weekends, that whole thing about you've got to be really careful that work isn't all of who you really are.  So, I think that is something to be aware of.  If you are going to do this, try and avoid that whole, "Well, it's got to take me more hours".  Try and challenge yourself to go, "No, this is about spending the hours that I have at work in a new way".

Helen Tupper: And the fourth and final idea here, which is all around the how, is about balancing the risk in your portfolio career versus the reliability.  So, it is quite useful to pick one role that might feel a bit more stable, maybe in terms of your income or familiarity, or the skills that you know you can use on a day-to-day basis.  And then that gives you the space to stretch yourself in a different way with a different opportunity.

An example of this would be the work we're doing with the Department for Education, which is where they're really talking about mixing working in industry for some of your working week, and then teaching in further education for the rest of your working week.  So, the industry thing probably feels quite familiar.  That's the thing that feels maybe stable and something you're confident in; and perhaps teaching and further education feels a bit different, though they've got loads of support.  Genuinely, if that is something you're interested in, they've got loads of support, we'll put all the links for it.  You can talk to an advisor, you can find out what you can do next.  It's actually a very good way of starting with a portfolio career.

But regardless of whether it's something like that or something different, it's this idea of balancing something that feels familiar and feels quite stable, with the space to maybe do something a bit different than what you might already be doing.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I've actually done this.  I was just thinking, as you were describing that, I perhaps don't give myself credit for this being part of my portfolio career, because it perhaps feels too ad hoc rather than intentional, but I think it could move from ad hoc to intentional; I have done some teaching back at Warwick University, where I studied for my MBA, with current MBA students.  I think it's just because I perhaps don't think of it or describe it as teaching, because essentially I go in and talk about Amazing If and the students all get the opportunity to critique it.  They basically sit there and think about everything they've learnt and then ask me questions.  We're like a case study that they use.

But also, I do talk to them a bit about careers and career development, and I've done different panels on starting companies.  So, various things that actually, when listening to you then, I was thinking, "Actually, I've dabbled in that area", which is not a bad place to start.  You're thinking, "Do I enjoy that; does that feel like something I'd want to be more of a permanent part of my portfolio career?"  So actually, I think this idea of trying some stuff out and just experimenting with it, with an eye to thinking, "Would I like to do that more frequently?" because actually, that is one of the reasons that I have said yes to that, because that's not something most of the time that we're necessarily getting paid for. 

So, I am making a time trade-off decision and thinking, "In the future, I can imagine I would enjoy doing more of something that looks a bit like this as part of my portfolio, so let's just give it a try in a very low-commitment way".  I think that can be a really good way to get started as well.

Helen Tupper: So, let's just summarise those four hows for you: number one was start with where you are; number two was build your brand; number three was plan your pattern; and number four was balance risk versus reliability.  And we'll summarise all of that and the different ideas for actions in this week's PodSheet, which you can get from PodMail; just sign up to that.  It's an email you get every week on a Tuesday, which has all the links to all the resources.  Or, if you do not need another email in your life, just go to our website.  It is amazingif.com.  If you go to the podcast page, you click on this podcast about portfolio careers, you will find all of the resources there.

Sarah Ellis: So as always, thank you so much for listening.  We hope you found that useful.  Any ideas for future episodes or feedback, or if you just want to get in touch, we always love to hear from you; we are helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  But that's all for this week and we'll talk to you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.