Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction

00:01:25: Career karma explained

00:02:34: The helper's high

00:04:07: Some key watchouts

00:05:38: The main principles of career karma

00:08:58: A shoutout to some great givers

00:11:29: Giving back with appreciation

00:15:08: Ideas for action…

00:15:30: … 1: career karma questions

00:19:48: … 2: figure out what you've got to give - the 3E Framework

00:26:40: … 3: how to share what you've got to give

00:31:42: … 4: how to give as a group - the career karma circle

00:35:37: … 5: the five-minute favour

00:41:25: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah.

Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen.

Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  Every week, we get together to help you to navigate the ups and downs in your Squiggly Career, talking about practical ideas for action and tools to try out, that we really hope will just leave you with that bit more confidence, clarity and control today, next week and for the rest of your career.

Helen Tupper: The long, long road of your career!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.  That last bit didn't actually sound very motivating, did it?!  We will do a little disclaimer at the start of this podcast.  Poor Helen is poorly, and typically we would not record a podcast when Helen isn't feeling great.  We think it's just a cold, so…

Helen Tupper: Well, you say that; I think you are just forcing me to do this.

Sarah Ellis: I know!  I was like, we can't go into all the ins and outs of why we're having to record now, but we are having to record now.  It is a Saturday night and Helen is ill, so please just bear that in mind as you listen, everybody.  If you're going for your walk -- actually, we actually feel quite good about the episode, we've done quite a lot of preparation for today, so we're feeling unusually confident.

Helen Tupper: Just a little bit of empathy with the croakiness!

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, so we feel confident about the content, but some of the delivery might sound a tad croaky at times.  So, Helen, what are we talking about today, which I think feels really unfair to now hand back over to you!

Helen Tupper: We're talking about croaky karma -- no, we're talking about career karma which actually, even though it is Saturday night and I'm a bit poorly, it's something I'm very, very passionate about, so hopefully that will come through. So, when we're talking about career karma, what we are referencing is this idea of developing the relationships that you need in your career, based on what you can give to those people, not what you want to get from them; and the understanding that we need to build to, and we'll talk about some principles in a minute, but the understanding is that actually does give you more back over the long run.  So, you have to just believe in the career karma concept, but it all gets started by thinking about how you can help and what you've got to give people. We have been talking about this in our workshops for a really long time. 

We wrote about it in our first book, The Squiggly Career, and I think the way that Sarah and I have built the relationships we have in our career is very, very much on this concept.  There are some really important reasons why career karma is important for your career development.  So, research from people like Adam Grant proves that the most successful people are givers, so they give first, they think about, "What have I got and how can I help?"  And, when that is your mantra for how you build relationships, you just get more back and that helps to fuel your career success. Also, it feels nice.  Even if you don't do it for like, "I know if I help Sarah, in a year she might help me"; don't do it for that reason.  It just feels nice that we have so many conversations with people who feel awkward about the idea of networking, because it feels like you're asking people for things and they don't know you very well, and a whole load of confidence gremlins creep in. 

But if you just take the asking away for a moment and focus on the giving, that actually feels good.  It's got a concept, it's called "the helper's high".  So, our brains like to give.  Being a human is all about giving, so it feels nicer, as well as it pays back over the long term. It also helps you to increase your career capital.  I think about giving and helping as like a career credit.  In your Squiggly Career, when you're moving around and you're squiggling in your company and outside of it, every time you help somebody, it's like you put a career credit in the bank, and it accrues interest over time that you can draw on in the future.  And, all you're trying to do is accumulate that wealth in your career by just giving people, putting credits in your career bank.

Sarah Ellis: I recently went to an event in Wales, here in the UK, called DO Lectures.  It's in barns, it's on a farm, so a real-life barn; and on the side of one of these barns, they've got a brilliant phrase which is, "Givers get lucky".  It sparked that thought again about career karma for me, because I think it's something I've always intuitively believed in, almost before I read any of the research, before I've seen other people talk about this. But I do think there are some watchouts that we have to be careful about.  The first thing is that we still need boundaries, otherwise we burn out.  So, this doesn't mean giving relentlessly, unreservedly, and getting into the territory of being a people pleaser; you know that attitude of, "I'm going to put everyone else before myself".  That doesn't describe what we're aiming for here when we feel like we're doing a good job of this, of creating career karma.  And I think as we go through some of these principles and the ideas for action, I hope you'll get a real sense of that.

So, when you do actually look at the research, you look at Adam Grant's research, he finds that both the most successful and the least successful people in organisations are both givers, and like always, the nuance of the Devil's in the detail, it's about being specific about what you've got to give and who you give it to, otherwise it's not valued.  This is not about saying yes all the time, or doing things for other people without stopping and thinking about, "How can I be most useful?"  It's almost taking quite a strategic approach, I think, when you start to really consider, "What does this mean for me and my career?"

Helen Tupper: It makes me think of a model that we can bring to life on PodPlus.  I can see a sort of scale where, at one end you've got, "You don't give enough and therefore you don't gain over the long term"; and at the other end, you've got the, "I give too much and it's potentially a bit of a drain for you and your energy"; but the optimum bit is the bit in the middle, which is hopefully where we're going to help people get to in the episode.

Sarah Ellis: So, just a few principles to bear in mind.  This is not about give and take.  So, we're not talking here about immediate reciprocity, because I think again that can feel uncomfortable and a bit transactional, and I do really like this phrase that Adam Grant uses where he says, "It's about giving without keeping score".  That summarises exactly what we're trying to describe today. One of the other really interesting things here about doing this well is the relationship between career karma and ego.  So, if you've got a really high need for ego reinforcement, you are much more likely to be a taker than a giver.  On face value, that can feel really uncomfortable and I'm sure everyone listening will be like, "Oh, that's okay, because that's not me"; but there are probably still moments that you can think of where maybe you can be more I-focused than we-focused.  So, this is about collaboration and thinking about the we, and not just thinking about you and your profile. There is a brilliant example.  I was re-reading Adam Grant's book, Give and Take, to prepare for this podcast, and I'd missed it the first time round, or it hadn't stuck, but I think it will this time. 

They showed two different chief executives, and I think it was in an annual report, or something like that, both white men, I think they were, in their 50s or 60s, very similar profile head shots.  And then they showed those head shots in context.  One company had gone for this guy who'd got a full-page profile picture of him, just him, massive; and then the other one, there was a tiny little photo of him, top right, with lots of other much more important things about the company. He was just using that to make that point about going, "Which one of those people can you imagine being more of a giver, and which one can you imagine being more of a taker?"  To be fair, he then specifically brought it to life with those two exact individuals.  But I was like, that's a small one, but it is quite interesting just thinking about how you show up and what that looks like.  Anyway, it stopped me, and I thought it was quite memorable. The other thing to say and a really important principle with givers is, you absolutely still ask for help.  So, just because you're a giver, doesn't mean that you don't also need help along the way, because of course we all do. 

And actually, you're more likely to get the help you need as a giver, so that's another upside for everybody doing lots of giving, and this point probably relates to ego and the thing we were talking about there, which is about being vulnerable.  So, as part of giving, you probably will be vulnerable as well, because you worry less about protecting your ego and being really certain. So, this doesn't mean that you've got to be really definitive the whole time about exactly what you're giving, almost like with some sort of incredible masterplan; we do want you to be thoughtful, we want you to be intentional absolutely, but it doesn't mean that you have to come up with some sort of formula of exactly who you give to and when you do that, and let's not create spreadsheets of, "How many times have I given?" and creating a green box each time that happens; I don't think that's what we're aiming for. But even as I was going through these ideas for action, I got a sense of, I can see the ones that I already do well and I've learnt to do well over the years, and then I can see some where I think, "Maybe that hasn't been front of mind for me for a while, and I think I could almost reignite that".  So, perhaps be thinking about that as we go through. We thought it would be really nice to think about who are some of the best givers that we know, just a great opportunity to shoutout these people who do this amazingly well.  It is a generous thing to do and it's something that we have definitely both benefited from.  So, Helen, a couple of people you want to give a shoutout to, as some of your good givers?

Helen Tupper: Well, I think I've got a bit of recency bias going on, because the two people that I'm mentioning literally gave me loads last week.  The first one is a lady called Caroline Vandenberg, who I used to work with at -- well, when I was at Virgin, she worked for this organisation called Golden Gecko, that we were building the app that we were building, and we reconnected relatively recently actually, and I've had a couple of lunches with her, and it's really funny. So, we had a lunch this week and literally, she gets her notebook out and she's writing notes of all the things that she basically wants to give to me, like an introduction, a link that she thinks would be helpful, a process; she's literally writing notes, and just because she's generous and she's interested and she cares; that is it.  Now, what's really interesting, you know the point you said earlier about, "It doesn't have to be reciprocal", so she was giving me loads, she literally got her notebook out and she was writing and I was like, "I haven't written anything down in return"!  I literally felt like she was giving me and I wasn't giving her enough back. But I think she's the sort of person, she just likes giving.  And of course I will help her in the future, of course I will, because I like her and she was so helpful to me, and that's the point.  But it is hard not to feel like, "You're giving me a lot and I'm not doing it in return for you".

Sarah Ellis: Do you know, I've actually had a few people say that to me before, when I've been helping someone, maybe they're going through a career dilemma; these are usually friends, but I happen to be a helpful friend when it comes to career dilemmas.  So, they've rung you, they want to talk something through with you, or they're just saying, "We'd appreciate your perspective on this career interview", or something.  And often those people have said, "I feel like you've helped me loads, but I've not helped you". I think we forget is that helper's high that the person helping you will have just experienced.  There is nothing nicer than feeling useful.  Those conversations, if you ask mentors, "What's your favourite part of your week?" people will always say the moments they are mentoring.  The reason for that is because you're helping someone else and you're feeling useful.  So, even though it can feel uncomfortable if you're feeling like you're on the receiving end of lots of giving, always trust in that you don't need to do it always in that moment, and I do think at different points in our career, we can give different things.  So, don't put that pressure on yourself to always be able to give in the same way.

Helen Tupper: I think actually, when I've been on the other foot, one of the most valuable things that you can give back is appreciation in the moment like, "Thank you, I'm really grateful for you giving me this time", but then almost the impact of that support after the moment, you know when someone comes back to you and goes, "Thanks so much for that introduction.  I got in touch with them, and…"  So, I think sometimes you can give back to a giver in a slightly different way.  You don't have to make an introduction for them, you just have to let them know the impact of that giving.

Sarah Ellis: That's nice, that's a really good idea, we should have included that in the podcast.  But now you've said it, I actually do remember you talking about that before, that almost virtuous cycle of helping and then going back and saying, "This was helpful because…"  So, I think that's a really good extra top tip that isn't an idea for action, but probably could have been.  A couple of examples that I've got: I always think it's particularly impressive when people give when first of all, it's so clear that they don't really have very much to gain. 

You know when you think, "I can't see anything in it for them particularly"; and even more impressive when they're potentially a competitor. I do really remember when we were first developing Squiggly Careers podcast and doing our first book, The Squiggly Career, thinking, "It would be amazing if we could talk to Emma, get on her podcast".  Her podcast had been around for longer than ours, Ctrl Alt Delete, she'd already written a few books, she'd got a really good profile, she'd developed all of her communities online, and you know when you think, "I do want to ask her", but equally I'm thinking, "There's loads of reasons she could say no here; there are more reasons to say no than there are to say yes", and she was just so generous and she really just took this approach of, "There is room for everyone.  We can all collaborate and we'll all be better because of it".  It just always stood out to me as that first moment. Then, to go beyond that where, actually the first time she interviewed me, she interviewed me for so long and she's such a good interviewer, first of all I ended up sharing loads of stuff that I hadn't anticipated talking about, she really got me at one of those quite vulnerable moments; and then she put out two podcasts, so she went even further than she needed to, to support us. 

That's just Emma, I think that is just how Emma shows up, which I really appreciate. Again, for somebody like Mary Portas, I remember sending an email to Mary Portas asking her to endorse You Coach You, our more recently book, and thinking again, "It's not very likely".  You're like, "She'll have 4 million things to do, no reason to respond to this email.  I can understand why this would not be top of her list".  But first of all, she responded quickly, she was really happy to help, and she's always been a really big advocate of women supporting women, and men supporting women.  And then, I just felt like she was very consistent with those things that she says. First of all, that really reassures me when there's no say/do gap, people are what they say. 

And again, I just think when people just take the time; the Mary Portas one is quite different to Emma, because we have got to know Emma now and I would call Emma a friend or a collaborator from time to time.  We don't know her really well, but we've certainly spent quite a lot of time together in the past couple of years.  Whereas, I think what Mary Portas did for us is what Adam Grant would describe as "the quick help, the five-minute favour", which is one of the things that we're going to talk about.  It shows how you can give in a very short and specific way, and that is equally as useful as what Emma has done, which is you've given continuously and you've collaborated and that giving has gone much further. So, we've got five ideas for action for you today, got a bit carried away with all the different ideas, and I think as I hope it's clear from what we talk about, we're both quite passionate about this, because I think it has helped us and I hope we both do at least some of these things well ourselves.  It will actually be interesting as we go through, Helen, perhaps you and I can think about which one of these do we think we do really well, and what would our "even better if" be. So, our idea for action one is career karma questions.  So, this is almost related to the point that Helen talked about when she met Caroline, is when you meet people, questions to have top of mind.  The more you dive into this idea of giving, you realise that people almost have two or three go-to questions, because they want to give, and they've almost practised those. 

So, every time they chat to someone, they're like, "I've sort of got a, 'This is what I want to say to this person, because I know that that will help me to give'". Some examples of what they might sound like, we've done a bit of a list for you, "How can I help you?" so really specific, very to the point; "What support do you need most at the moment?" so you're trying to make it quite timely and relevant; "Who would be useful for me to introduce you to?" so you're being generous with your connections, with the network that you've got; "What do you think about…?" and I was reading about this one. So, this is the idea if you have got something that you think could be useful, so let's say Helen talked to me and I think, "I have got the answer.  I have done this before, I can give you some really good advice", and actually I can imagine getting this wrong.  I can imagine saying, "Yeah, I've been there, our company was like that a couple of years ago.  This is what we did and it worked really well", so you're quite definitive in what you're giving.  Actually when you get into it, that's not as helpful as to almost suggest or prompt. What the research found is, if you're too definitive, it almost feels like you're telling, which I sort of get.  It's like, "I'm telling you the answer", and also it's more ego driven.  I was like, "Oh yeah, this is me and my ego again going, 'I've got the right answer'". 

Whereas actually, if you're making suggestions, if you're saying, "Have you considered…?" and you're talking more in the round, it's more conversational, you're including somebody, and someone else can build and co-create almost with you, and that is more of a giving mindset than just, "I'm going to give you an answer".  I thought that was a really helpful nuance to just think about. The last one, which is less of a question, but I have seen other people use this really effectively, just saying something like, "I'm here to listen, if that would be helpful", so it's sort of a question. 

But you're essentially going, "What I can give you is my time and my ability to listen".  I actually had that from somebody this week.  Dan Cable, who's also a real giver; he was on my list of people who've been very giving without keeping score.  He helped us out with something, with a nomination for something this week.  I was very grateful, I had gone back, as Helen said, and said thank you and why it meant a lot to us; and I also told him, "I've had a quite a difficult week personally, so this has really cheered me up", that's really all I said. He came back to me almost immediately and said, "I'm here to listen if it would be helpful".  I didn't even need him to listen, but even the offer was a giving mindset.  And actually, I felt better with even him offering.  And these career karma questions, think of them both ways, because when other people ask you these questions, let's hope everybody just starts doing this all of the time, so when you get asked, "How can I help you?" make sure you've also got the answers. So today, we are really focusing on more you being a giver, but there'll be times, as Helen described, where someone's helping you, and I have done this before where I have fallen into the nice chat trap and not known the answers to these questions, and then people can't give as a useful way if you've not thought about some of these answers.  I do think they work both ways, so have your two or three career karma questions for when you're meeting people.

Helen Tupper: I also think those questions are really useful when you're in mentor mode, because you know sometimes you have mentor conversations?  Let's say you haven't really mentored before, and sometimes confidence gremlins can creep in like, "Am I going to be a useful mentor?  Can I be of any value?"  Actually, if you're in mentor mode and you start a conversation like, "It's great to spend some time with you.  How can I help you today, or what would be the best thing that I could support you with at the moment?" then that gives you that sort of confidence with that conversation, and then again puts you straight into giving, because sometimes I think you can get a bit tell-y in mentor mode. So, idea for action number two is how to figure out what you've got to give, and I would say that this is a real confidence gremlin issue that we see, which is people get the concept of being a giver, but then they second-guess themselves a lot and say, "But I've not got anything to give, I've not got enough experience to help [or] I don't know all these things that will be useful to Sarah, so how can I give in a useful way to Sarah?" I think the best way for you to figure out what you've got to give is something that we call a 3E Framework, because there are three things you've got to give, and they all begin with E. 

The first E is experience, so everybody has experience in something.  When you're first thinking about this, I don't want you to think, "But who would find that experience useful?" because you're not trying to connect the dots straightaway; I just want you to think, what are all the career and potentially life experiences that you've accumulated? If I was to just take five minutes and think about what are all the experiences I had accumulated, I have moved around different industries, I've moved around different organisations, I've been a manager, I've launched a side project; I have started two businesses, one that is mine, one that was Virgin; I work with a co-founder.  These are all experiences I have had, and to somebody who wants to do something that I have done, my experience will be invaluable.  I don't necessarily need to join the dots straightaway, but what I do need to know is that that experience is valuable to somebody. Equally, there will be certain expertise that you have got, and sometimes that can be a system, you know a very specific system internally, that somebody maybe new to your business has got absolutely no idea.  It could be acronyms!  Maybe if you've worked in a company for a while and you know the internal glossary, then that's really useful expertise for somebody who's like, "They're speaking a completely different language in this company".

Sarah Ellis: Can I share one of yours, Helen, with everyone listening --

Helen Tupper: Yeah, go on.

Sarah Ellis: -- that is the most random bit of expertise that Helen has?  But she is such a giver and it's so helpful.  Helen is weirdly good at searching for things.  That sounds like, surely everyone is good at using Google.  Well, you say that until you see Helen in action.  The other week, I was doing an interview with a journalist, and I had seen someone post something on LinkedIn and I didn't know their name.  I knew what company they had worked in and I knew I wasn't connected to them, and I had small memories of bits of this story that this person had shared, and Helen found that post.  I mean, it was incredible to watch. I mean, it's a small example, but it is honestly something Helen can give.  If you're ever trying to connect the dots and you've got a bit stuck and you're just going, "I know it's there, I just cannot find it", I just go, "I will try really hard for myself" and then I go, "I've tried really hard, Helen, please help me!"

Helen Tupper: The human search engine!

Sarah Ellis: You are!

Helen Tupper: Do you know, that particular example, it really annoyed me that that took about five minutes for me to do, because I think there's something in me that likes to do it fast!

Sarah Ellis: Well, you wouldn't move on and you wouldn't hang up the phone, because I was on the phone to you, and you were like, "Are you sure you can't remember anything else?" and I was like, "I really can't".

Helen Tupper: I think the words from Sarah were like, "I know the name of the company and this person mentioned her dad in the post".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, she did!

Helen Tupper: So, I was searching.  I mean, I saw some random stuff, but we eventually found it.

Sarah Ellis: We did; you did!

Helen Tupper: No, we did.  So, experience is the first one, expertise is the second one.  The third one, because even if a bit of self-doubt is creeping in and you're like, "But I've only just recently started in employment, I haven't got these things"; energy, energy.  First of all, we all have time; you might not think it, but you do have 168 hours in your week, like we all do, and you can choose where you want to spend that time. So, let's say Sarah wanted to start a project off, I could choose to give Sarah some of my energy, some of my time and say, "I've got a couple of hours on a Friday, I'd love to help. 

Let me know what I could do".  Or, it might be passion.  Someone that you know might be starting something or involved in a project, for example, that you've got particular passion for, you can contribute that energy like, "This is something that I'm excited about too, let me know how I can get involved".  Those three Es are a really good start point, particularly if a confidence gremlin might get in the way of you thinking about what you've got to give. But I would say the really important thing is, once you've done almost a mind map of the three Es, I'd say then, once you've got all that information, what you want to do is spot what other people are doing, and think about how you can join the dots.  So, that's what they're working on, these are my three Es, my energy, my experience, my expertise; how can I join the dots?  What you don't want to assume is that other people will be automatically aware of your three Es, the fact that you've got that passion or the fact that you've got that knowledge, and therefore they will ask. So, you don't want to just sit back and say, "Well, of course Sarah knows that I'm great at search and she's just going to ask me for it", you just want to say, "You seem to be struggling.  One of the things that I'm weirdly good at is finding stuff out; do you want me to have a go?" and it's that, I think, the spotting that they need it and joining the dots with what you've got to give that makes the biggest difference.

Sarah Ellis: And I would say on this one, this, of anything that we are going to talk about today, transformed my approach to helping people, networking, having a giving mindset; because, once I figured out the thing I'd got to give was actually my energy, passion and time for career development --

Helen Tupper: And ideas, you're so good at ideas, you're brilliant at giving that.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, probably true.  But I don't think I was -- now I'd say that; I don't think at the time I said that.  I think I thought, "But I do really care about this development stuff", that I'd started to get interested in, and I hadn't got experience in it and I hadn't got expertise; but what I could then do -- because that's not enough by itself.  I can't go, "I'm interested in it and I'm prepared to give my time and energy", I had to do that connecting the dots that you just described. So, all I connected the dots with was, "There's probably a group of people across companies, a bit like the one I'm in, who are prepared to do a bit of career development in their own time.  If I can bring people to them, as in if I can get some speakers, if I can come up with some tools", that's probably the ideas bit, "if I can come up with some tools and some ideas that might be useful, I can imagine a group of people a bit like me, that would be helpful for then.  And then I could start talking about it to people.  I could talk to their managers, I could talk to their organisations, I could talk to them and just say, 'I'm just trying out this new idea I've got. 

Literally on a Monday night, a group of us are getting together to do a bit of career development, I've got some amazing speakers, there's me along the way, I've got some ideas I'm going to share'" and that genuinely meant that I could give in a way that felt so nature and normal to me, also that I was so enthusiastic about. It felt really nice and it unlocked so much for me, in terms of my Squiggly Career and building relationships just in a way that belonged to me, as an introvert who gets nervous meeting new people. So, idea for action three is how to share what you've got to give.  So, you've done some of that figuring out, which I think is the tough bit sometimes, "I want to give.  What is it I'm going to give?" and hopefully you've done a bit of that connecting the dots.  How do you then be really explicit about sharing it, because sometimes we do feel a bit uncomfortable maybe about talking about some of these things?  So, three ways you can do this. The first one is, position as practice.  So, when you are talking to managers, mentors, having informal conversations, practise sharing that thing you want to give. 

So, this might sound something like, "I'm looking for more opportunities to practise my career coaching, have you got any suggestions about how I can make that happen?"  Or it could be, "I'm looking for more opportunities to practise my career coaching, have you got any suggestions about who that might be useful for?"  So, maybe there's a how question, maybe there's a who question. That's exactly how I started off in career development.  I would literally talk to people and say, "I need some people to practise on".  I was going, "Help me!" essentially.  It's an interesting one, because I think I had figured out what I'd got to give, but really I needed people to help me, because no one knew that that was my thing, because it wasn't my thing at that time, and I needed to get some people in that room. So I was like, "Who do you think might be interested in spending their spare time doing career development?  Are you interested in that?"  Or they might say, "Well, maybe I'm not, but my sister it [or] my friend over here at work is really into career development.  I bet they'd be really interested".  So, it was almost positioning, "I know what I've got to give, can you help me to give it?"  That's essentially what you're asking for; you're asking for help to do the giving. 

So, position as practice, I think that really helps to get you started. The second one is proactively prototype.  So, put together some ideas, some suggestions.  Somebody did this actually for me really recently.  They had listened to our Squiggly Career series where we'd done the books over the summer, where we'd both read books on similar topics and talked about them, so slightly different format.  And she just emailed me, partly with a little bit of feedback, but then just with loads of ideas, "Basically, I think you should repeat the format, how about doing it in this way?" suggestions for books and topics and themes. What she was doing there was proactively prototyping, "I've got some ideas, and I'm going to give them to someone who might find them useful", and she'd done it in a way that felt really meaningful. 

And I would guess what she's got to give, again she doesn't work in career development, would be partly she'd taken the time, so back to energy, she'd taken the time to even do that; she'd got some knowledge, because some of it was really good specific recommendations, so there was some knowledge there, she was like, "I can share my knowledge"; and probably her curiosity, and I was like, "That's such a brilliant example".  You know when you think, it's funny, I can remember that person's name.  I can remember the email, I can remember the tone of the email, the style of the email, because it stands out.  People don't do this as often as you might imagine. Then the last thing to do if maybe one of these feels brave, certainly for me it would feel brave, one of them feels a bit more like something I actually might do, which is to put an offer out openly.  So, you do see this now on LinkedIn, where people will say, "I'm really interested in doing more work on climate change.  Can I help anyone?  Who would be prepared to chat to me?"  So, you can just do the very explicit offer out and see who would benefit from that thing you've got to give.  I can never quite imagine myself doing that, if I'm honest.

Helen Tupper: Well, Bruce did that, didn't he, on that particular point.  The episode: Bruce Daisley.

Sarah Ellis: I know he did.  I think that's what I was thinking of with that example.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, because when he left Twitter and he was really passionate about climate change, amongst other things, and then said, "I'm just going to spend some time helping people who are doing stuff in this space, and I'm just going to put that offer out there, it's really powerful".

Sarah Ellis: I think I would still find that too scary.  Maybe I'll know I've really made it when I'm brave enough to do that!  But actually, I was reading something interesting recently about going, "If it doesn't feel like you, then that's okay, too".  So I was like, maybe I've decided that doesn't feel like me.

Helen Tupper: But also, you don't have to take out a newspaper advert, do you?

Sarah Ellis: No.

Helen Tupper: Like, "I could help with career development!"  You could just go on a WhatsApp chat of whoever your communities are that you're a part of and say, "I've got some time" for whatever reason, "I'd love to help anybody that needs to.  I've got a couple of coaching sessions".  Obviously, our framing is career development.  But maybe if your skills are in web design or accounting, you could offer that up.  It doesn't have to be out on LinkedIn, or completely out to everybody, it could just be a generous offer.  You put that offer out openly, but within maybe a slightly more closed group.

Sarah Ellis: Also, I think really important to remember here, there's no quantity benchmark that you should have in mind.  You could be giving to one person in a really meaningful way, and that absolutely matters.  When I've been reading lots of examples and case studies, often it is that.  It could be one to many, and we're going to talk about some examples of that; but it can be one to one, so you don't judge your giving ability by how many people you give to.  Judge by, do you feel like you're giving in a way that feels motivating, and that you're getting that sense of satisfaction from as well.

Helen Tupper: So, idea for action four is how to give as a group, or even how to give within a group.  And I love this one, and we call it "the career karma circle" and I get to do this sometimes when we do our virtual sessions with people.  The way that it works is, you've got to think before you do this, so I would take five minutes.  Let's say you're in a team meeting and you take five minutes to write down three things that you've got to give, and you can the energy, expertise and experience one as a bit of a prompt for that; and then three things that you want to gain, and I would say be specific about the gain, so say three things you'd like to gain to support your career development in the next 12 months.  Get specific about the timeframe, so it's not really, really big, and just take five minutes so that you get that insight down.

Then, what you do in your career karma circle is everybody shares their thing that they've got to give and the things that they want to gain, and it has two really big benefits.  The first is that you just get more confident talking about it, because to the point earlier about people don't really know what you've got to give unless you start talking about what it is, they can't guess the things that you know and that you're passionate about.  So, it just gives you a little bit more confidence in hopefully what feels like quite a safe environment, and that's a really big benefit. But the other thing that I love is that you often find give/gain matches.  So, I might say to Sarah, "One of the things that I've got to give is that I'm", I don't know, "really good at process maps".  I'm not, but let's just imagine that was it.  And Sarah might say, "One of the things that I would like to gain is some support with organisation, because I come up with loads of ideas and I'm not really sure how to structure it, or create a process where it goes from idea to action". Then all of a sudden you go, hang on, Helen's got this thing she wants to give and it's actually matching with the thing Sarah wants to gain; that could be a really positive thing for us to connect on, and it just creates that confidence and the conversation around this giving point, which I think feels really beneficial for teams.  You can do it quite regularly, because if you said, "What's the thing I want to gain over the next three months?" it's a conversation that you could come back to as a team much more frequently.

Sarah Ellis: And what I really like about when I've seen that activity in action is, there's also no immediate expectation of immediate reciprocity.  So, yes, you might get a give/gain match, but that doesn't mean that both people are giving to each other, it just means that Helen's got something to give, and I'd go, "I'd really love to gain that".  But maybe I give to person B or person C over here, and that's someone completely different. 

So, I like the fact that you go where you're needed, and without then thinking, "I must also do something in return". It's a really positive thing to do, and I am definitely part of some career karma circles, where I see that every time someone puts on their WhatsApp group, "I'm a bit stuck about…" or, "Has anyone got any ideas?" and there's a question, or maybe just a concern, or someone's having a really tough time, I saw it on one WhatsApp group that I'm on this week, where someone was really struggling in a really difficult situation, and just watching that WhatsApp group, first of all just empathise, really offer support, be very present for that person, I was just watching it in awe in terms of going, "What a career karma circle to be part of", to feel like you can go there and in a very trusted way, ask for some support.

People were giving very different things.  Some people were giving, "I have been in that situation, let me help", which is the experience one, "I've had that experience, let me help you"; some people were going, "I just want someone to listen", back to, "That sounds really difficult, can I help by just listening?"; some people were going, "Here's some very practical things that you can go away and read that could be useful".  So I was like, this person was just gaining really helpful things in loads of different ways from different people and it was so nice to watch.  I mean, I wasn't even being helpful and I think I was even getting the helper's high from just observing it, which is definitely cheating! Idea for action five is a bit of borrowed brilliance from Adam Grant, and if you've not watched his TED Talk on give and take and how givers get more, I would recommend it.  And he does talk about this idea of the five-minute favour.  Essentially, if you can do something for someone in under five minutes, just do it, essentially.

Helen Tupper: Why wouldn't you.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, why wouldn't you.  And actually, I know why you wouldn't, because people forget about it, that's why you wouldn't.  That's definitely happened to me, you're really busy, other things feel more important.  But every time I do a five-minute favour, I feel really good.  You feel that sense of, "I've done a small thing I hope might help", you're never quite sure, which is also why you should definitely go back to that person if it does help. Again, whenever I talk about this in workshops, or sometimes with communities, people are really keen to do this, but they're, "Like what?  Give me some examples of these five-minute favours".  So, a few that could be helpful, and if you've got other examples, please get in touch and let us know.  So, introductions are I think the classic five-minute favour, is how I would describe that one.  If you can introduce two people together, try and do it in a meaningful way, why you're connecting those people up, but that email can just take five minutes. Another idea, share a useful link to a book, to a podcast, to a talk.  If you see something and think, "That would be helpful for this person", send it to them, explain why you think it might be good.  You could write a recommendation for someone on LinkedIn, it doesn't usually take you very long; you could do an email or a voice note with encouragement or support. 

This has happened to me, as in people have given this to me, particularly in the last couple of years, and it has been really, really appreciated.  So, if you're ever thinking, "They probably don't need it [or] they know they're great", we don't always know that we're great, and it is always helpful to be reminded, particularly if you're having a tough time, or if it just feels like things are not going very well. So, if you are someone who knows someone well enough to leave a voice note on WhatsApp, or if you can send someone -- someone sent me actually, two weeks ago, someone we know really well, sent me a very thoughtful thank you card, which I will always keep.  It might have taken slightly more than five minutes, because she did write a little bit on it, but you still go, it's a very short thing that she didn't have to do that I wasn't expecting, but it was very, very meaningful for me.  It also made me realise that pretty small favour I did for her made a really big difference.

Helen Tupper: One I've done randomly recently, I don't think you would do this one, but that's the point, isn't it, about personalising what you've got to give, I was at an event and there were various people that I knew that were speaking on the stage at this event.  So, what I tried to get was the best picture of them on stage, because you know when someone's been a speaker, they're obviously speaking at an event probably because they believe in whatever they're speaking about, but they also probably want to build their profile; but probably no one's taking a photo of them, and they might want to take a picture and share it on LinkedIn and say, "I was really delighted that I was part of this event". So, every time someone that I knew was on the stage, I took a photo of them, the best picture I could get, the most flattering one, because it's so hard to get a good picture of someone when they're speaking.  There's been enough bad screen shots of me and Sarah!  Then, I messaged it to them that night on LinkedIn and was like, "I thought this was really good, I loved this quote that you said.  Here's a picture if it helps".  I did it for about four or five people that I knew, and it could be a presentation at work.  That happened to be an event that I was at, but these are just small things that help people that they might not think of.  And it's almost the more surprising it is, like a surprising thank you note, or a surprising photo that's helpful, those are the sort of really stand-out five-minute favours that make a really big difference.

Sarah Ellis: There's a brilliant woman, called Zara, who we work with now at LinkedIn, and we know Zara really well now, because over time, we've ended up working with her, because we've been in a LinkedIn TV add, and who knew that was ever going to happen.  But do you know one of the things I really remember about Zara is, we met when I was in the very early days of running some career development stuff, very outside of my day job, and she would always turn up a little bit early, and she'd always put out the chairs for me.  And you know that point about letting your ego go? 

She'd got more important things to do than put chairs out, but she was almost quietly and very unreservedly just there to help me. I didn't know Zara at that time, it was quite a long time ago, I didn't know her, but she saw and she spotted that I was by myself running that programme, I'd got no help, I'd got speakers to look after, I'd got 100 people turning up to that room, probably didn't look super-organised at the same time; and she was probably thinking, "Do you know what, I can probably help Sarah just by physically being here".  Then what she was brilliant at, she just used to take initiative, so she would organise the chairs, she would come up to me and say, "Can I go and let your speaker in?"  She'd just do really, really small things. What she was brilliant at actually was lots of five-minute favours.  And you know when those small five-minute favours then add up, they're worth their wait in gold.  And it's funny, isn't it; it's no surprise that Zara and I ended up staying really connected.  And, crikey, she has given so much to me and to us and to Amazing If over the past couple of years.  So actually I'm thinking, "Did I ever -- what have I given back?  Maybe some career development stuff along the way", I hope anyway. Helen Tupper: Go and leave her an amazing recommendation on LinkedIn tonight.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that's what -- I mean, she works for LinkedIn, so do you just automatically get those?  I don't know!  But she definitely deserves one.  I think she sometimes listens to the podcast, so if she's listening and she wants me to, I absolutely will do that five-minute favour, because I do feel a little bit like I owe her about 50 of them. Helen Tupper: Okay, well that was one after tonight then, there you go; one at a time! 

So, just a really quick summary then of those five actions, all to help you create a bit of career karma to support you with your development.  So, the first one was about those career karma questions; second idea for action was figuring out what you've got to give; the third one was sharing proactively what you've got to give; the fourth one was all about how you give as a group; and the fifth one was about a five-minute favour. We will summarise all those ideas for action on the PodSheet, which you can download from the show notes if you listen on Apple; I don't know where it goes on other places, to be honest, but just come to our website if you can't find it.  That is amazingif.com, and go to the podcast page, click on the podcast that you want to listen to, and then you'll find the PodSheets for all the episodes there.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you all so much for listening.  We always really appreciate you taking some of your week to listen to us, and hopefully learn from us as well.  If there are topics you'd like us to cover, get in touch.  We're helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com.  You can connect with us on LinkedIn, or get in touch and message us on Instagram, but that's everything for this week and we'll speak to you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.