Timestamps
00:00:00: Introduction
00:03:19: It all started at university
00:06:43: Random first jobs and travelling
00:10:06: A job may be more about the package that comes with it
00:12:43: Pick up the phone and be open to exploring other roles
00:17:10: Having a positive attitude can bring you luck
00:22:20: Managing relationships can be key
00:24:58: Don't let ego stop you from stepping across instead of up
00:28:25: The "burn-the-boats" attitude
00:33:36: How the podcast was born
00:38:14: Simon's career advice
00:40:43: Final thoughts
Interview Transcription
Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen, and this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we record and share an episode with you to help you with the ups and downs of Squiggly Careers, whether you've got an interview coming up or a confidence gremlin getting in your way, Sarah and I talk about it and share as many practical ideas for action as we can to support you. This week is slightly different, it's National Careers Week in the UK, and Sarah and I thought, "What can we do to help people think about their career, and perhaps how they could develop in different directions and take advantage of the opportunities that Squiggly Careers present?" We thought we would talk to some different people about their Squiggly Career, and understand how they have developed in different directions.
So, our conversations this week have included my chat with Jim MacLeod, a Royal Navy Rear Admiral, about how you can squiggle and stay in an organisation; Sarah's conversation with Steph Douglas, all about running your own businesses and how you do that and the challenges that are inevitable as an entrepreneur. Sarah talked to Eric Sim as well, about his career story of resilience and bravery and lots of pivots in his story as well; and today, you're going to hear me talking to Simon Mundie, a BBC journalist, also the presenter on the Life Lessons podcast, and a friend of Amazing If; big fan of Simon.
His career story is really all about how you create opportunities. I really liked how Simon talked about how, even when you're in a large organisation, sometimes you can feel a bit stuck, you can feel a bit siloed or a bit constrained in your career, and Simon felt like that at one point when he was at the BBC. So, he decided that he was going to really start pushing his progression and creating opportunities for himself that didn't exist until he did them. And I think there's a lot to learn from Simon's approach, and to think about how we can create those opportunities for ourselves. I don't know if I could go full-on Simon, but I could definitely start a bit Simon, having listened to this podcast!
There's lots to learn and lots to take away. We'd love to know what you might do after listening to this conversation today. Email us, we're just
helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com, but here's the conversation with Simon.
Simon, welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.
Simon Mundie: Helen, it's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Helen Tupper: So, we've had several chats over WhatsApp, in person now, and when I started to find out more about you and your career, I was fascinated. It's very Squiggly.
Simon Mundie: It's very Squiggly, yes, indeed. I think, having become familiar with Squiggly Careers, and the squiggle itself, it really resonated with me. So, yeah, it is.
Helen Tupper: And the thing that I really liked when we were talking is how many of the Squiggly moves that you have made, you have created for yourself. I think some people follow the squiggle, but I feel like you have really created it for yourself, and I wanted to share some with the audience; because when I heard about it I was like, "Wow, that's amazing. Why didn't I ever do that?" I could have had a very different career. I'm quite happy with my career, but I think you've done some really interesting things that people can learn from.
So, I wonder whether we start early Simon squiggle, early, and maybe the first time that you think that you created an opportunity for yourself in your career that maybe took you down a different route than you'd started out from.
Simon Mundie: Okay, I'm actually going to have to go back to university. So, I just wanted to go to Leeds University. It's the most fun university, that's a fact, it certainly was in my day. Various of my friends were going, so I just wanted to go. I had done one of those career psychometric tests and it said, "Be a journalist", because I was a gobby so-and-so. So, I started doing sociology, which I didn't get on with. It was boring and I wasn't engaged in it at all.
I came back for the second term in my first year and I didn't even realise we had exams, and I didn't realise I had stuff to hand in, and I remember my mum bought me a book, "Sociology for Dummies", for Christmas. Anyway, a friend of mine had dropped out the year before and had redone his first year, so it laid an idea in my mind, I thought maybe I could do that.
So, I loved French at school, so I was in the library, and I was flicking through the prospectus looking for French, "
Boom", opened the page, Broadcast Journalism. I never even knew it existed. I thought, "That sounds wicked!" I tootled off to the broadcast journalism department and met the dean, or whatever it was, of the whole department, sat down, got on really well with her, told her I'd done some work experience at school at a paper, bigged myself up, she was like, "I love it, you're in next year".
The irony is, I never would have got in had I applied, because my predictions weren't high enough and it's a very prestigious course. So, it was only that I was already in university and had gone to see her in person. That's why I always say to people, "Get in front of people". So, I then dropped out, went home, did some menial jobs and then came back and second time round, I was fully engaged, I was really into it.
So, that was part one, and that has shaped my career, that one thing; first of all, stumbling across broadcast journalism, and then going to see that teacher.
Helen Tupper: And that takes quite a lot of confidence though, particularly at that age, I think to make the decision itself to not stick out on the thing and see it through to the end, because maybe your parents had expected you to do that, so you were going against other people's expectations, which you have to do quite a lot in Squiggly Careers at all stages of your career; but also, to have the confidence to have a conversation with somebody you didn't know, also a person, it was a dean, right, so in a position of seniority. Where did the confidence -- it this just Simon was quite a cocky person?
Simon Mundie: I was cocky, yes, but I was also insecure and lacking confidence. I think, had I not known my friend who had done it, I wouldn't have done it. So I thought, "Okay, it's possible". So I think having that evidence that it was doable was key. I've always been someone, I think, who feels things quite strongly, so I just had this sense that the course I was on was not right, and I needed to do something about it.
Going to see this teacher doesn't mean I wasn't full of doubt; I was, but for whatever reason, I did it anyway. I think it's that old cliché, "Feel the fear and do it anyway". But that has been a very common theme throughout my life. I think outwardly, people have often perceived me as confident, at school arrogant even, but that's always just been a front to the insecure little boy behind!
Helen Tupper: We can get into that one as well! So, brave choice number one.
Simon Mundie: So, that was brave number one, yeah.
Helen Tupper: Okay, so then we're on broadcast journalism?
Simon Mundie: So, I did broadcast journalism, really enjoyed it. It was only about five hours a week. It actually frustrated me how little we were doing, because actually the work was so fun. I got a 2:1, left, did some quite cool jobs straight out of uni. I worked for a production company making documentaries for Radio 1, I did crowd warmup for Robot Wars, do you remember Robot Wars?
Helen Tupper: I do remember Robot Wars. You were crowd warmup? What does that entail?
Simon Mundie: I was Robo Babe! It was meant to be for a woman, but she broke her leg, I think, the day before the series started.
Helen Tupper: Robo Babe; best job title for Simon Mundie ever!
Simon Mundie: So, I'd have to do quizzes, hand out T-shirts, games, so that was fun. Then they wanted to enhance my role, but I'd agreed to go travelling with a friend of mine, so I went the stereotypical route, through Asia, then I went to Australia and I lived and worked in Australia for a year.
I came back, expecting to be really on it and more motivated, more clarity, and throw myself back into it. But I actually came back -- I was actually going through a bit of a period of anxiety at the time, uncertainty, feeling like I was old; I think I was only about 22. But you get that feeling in your early 20s of, "Oh my God!" My friends were working at Sky and whatever else, and I was --
Helen Tupper: "Am I behind already?"
Simon Mundie: Exactly, that thing. And I remember my mum being like, "Get a job, you need to get a job", when actually, the better advice -- maybe that was still good advice; you can't change the past, the past is what it is. But I think the advice that I would give anyone now in their 20s would be, that decade, for me, is a chance for experimentation, is to find out what makes you tick. But I was like, "I need a job and I need it now".
So, my big passion in life, for most of my life, and I mean next-level stuff, total tennis geek, was tennis, and I used to read this tennis magazine called Ace Tennis magazine. So, I rang them. They had a guy, it was very fortunate, I literally rang and was like, "Have you got any jobs?" and the guy who answered the phone was like, "Funnily enough, I'm leaving in a couple of months", and he was doing sales, ad sales.
So, I went and worked for this tennis magazine that I'd been reading since I was 8. I've still got copies dating back to 1990 at home.
Helen Tupper: Why are you keeping those copies?
Simon Mundie: They're keepsakes. When Sampras won the US Open in 1990, who could forget that?
Helen Tupper: If you could see Simon now, you would just see the love in his eyes, everybody!
Simon Mundie: Proper tennis nerd! So, I got this job there, and it was for the LTA. So, it was at Queen's Club, it was like being back at school, it was loads of young people. There were tennis courts, Andy Murray was training there.
Helen Tupper: And you'd never done sales before? So, you were calling up --
Simon Mundie: No, I had done sales in Australia, I was selling life insurance, quite good at it actually.
Helen Tupper: Okay, so we're going from selling life insurance to selling something to do with tennis, which you have a passion for; got it.
Simon Mundie: Ad sales in the magazine. But I can't actually remember selling anything, it was just people doing repeat. Honestly, it was a complete waste of time from that point of view. I did some writing for the mag as well, but really I enjoyed the lifestyle. It was like being back at school; everyone would be out playing sport at lunchtime. It was very sporty, tennis tournaments, all this stuff. And before I know it, three years has gone by, and all of a sudden I'm like, "What am I doing?" I'm now 26 and I'm thinking, "Oh my Lord, what am I doing?" Just again, that inner feeling of, "This is not right".
People were saying, "You don't appreciate the job you've got. Why don't you go for a sales job in this, that and the other?" and something in me was just screaming, "No, this is not for me".
Helen Tupper: Just to pause on that point actually, because I think there's something in what you've described there, which is really relevant to how a lot of people are feeling about their work right now, which is where the job that they did, or were doing pre-pandemic, had a lot of things around it that made it an experience that they enjoyed. So, "I have my job, but then I have the social life, the people that I work with, the cool office, all the stuff", and it was like the job was part of a package.
Then, during the pandemic, quite a lot of that package has gone away and you're left with this job, and I think a lot of people get to the point that you got to of, "What am I doing; and what am I doing it for?" when the rest of those elements have gone away, you're just left with the work at the end of the day. I think it is leading to people to maybe get to that question point that you got to about, "Is this actually what I want to be doing? Is this what makes work worthwhile for me?"
Simon Mundie: 100%, I'm really noticing that. I'm getting a lot of emails and communications from people saying exactly that. I think you've summed that up really well. At that point, all the extras, the tennis, the socialising, etc, was not able to compensate for the work I was doing that I was just finding very frustrating. But they all knew that I was a proper tennis nerd. So, I can name every Wimbledon winner and finalist dating back to about 1968, and they would get me to do interviews.
If you go on YouTube, in 2007 I represented the magazine talking about when women got equal prize money at Wimbledon, and I was doing a few interviews like that, and for talk sport, and I did one for Radio Wimbledon in 2006 and the editor got in touch. He was like, "You were really good", and I was like, "I trained in this. Why am I not doing radio? I should be doing radio, I've wasted this time". It wasn't a waste actually, in hindsight, at all. Actually, I'm really glad I did it. But I was like, "I should be doing radio".
So, I ring this contact at Talk Sport, and I'm like, "What do you suggest?" and he's like, "Well, there's this little radio station in New Malden, where I now live funnily enough, and it's called Radio Jackie, and they are quite good at helping people out just starting out, because obviously I'd got this four-and-a-half-year gap in my CV, so I couldn't expect to go in at a reasonable level.
So, I rang Radio Jackie and I said, "Look, have you got any jobs?" Guess what, the guy answers and he's like, "Well, funnily enough, the guy is leaving who does the news and sports show on a Saturday afternoon. Do you want to do it? We can't pay you, but do you want to do it?" I was like, "Absolutely!" It's that old thing, commit and then work it out later.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, there is a lot of that. There's also a theme coming through for me of, pick up the phone and to be open to explore. Each time, you're creating opportunities by picking up the phone, and then people are coming to you with, "Well, here's an option", and you're quite open to, "Okay, ad sales, okay, I'll do that job". There's an openness in this as well.
Simon Mundie: Yeah, 100%. And at each step, and this is a theme that will continue as I tell my story; each step, I still have the thoughts of, "I can't do that". The "I can't do that thought", has been very prominent throughout my life, not particularly with the ad sales, not that I can remember, but certainly when it was like, "Do you want to do the sport and news?" I was thinking, "I haven't done this for ages, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know how to drive a desk", the voice saying, "No, don't do it!" But I ignored it and I was like, "Yes, I'll do it".
I went and I did this job for a year for free on a Saturday. I lived in Clapham at the time, and I used to drive down, so it would take me about 45 minutes, an hour to drive, so it was costing me money in petrol. I'd get there at 11.00am, and I wouldn't get home until 8.00pm every Saturday. So, for that whole year, my social life took a hit.
Helen Tupper: What was the motivation to do it, because that's a big time commitment, big life commitment; was it, "I'm loving what I'm doing" or, "I'm learning" or was it, "This is going to help my career in the long term"; what was the thinking?
Simon Mundie: I think I'd had that conversation with the Radio Wimbledon guy who'd said, "You're good". I'd remembered my training, I'd remembered that I like talking and I thought I'd give it a shot. Then, when I did it, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed being on air. I still remember my first broadcast for Radio Jackie, actually. There was a football match going on and a goal was scored as I was on air, so I had to commentate live, a typical baptism of fire that often happens on your first day, right.
I got through it and I remember the DJ going, "Well done, Simon", in a sort of Smashie and Nicey, yeah! And I got through it, and I just really enjoyed it, compared to my normal job. I experienced a sense of flow. When I'm in the studio, even before I'm in the studio, I'm not thinking about, "God, I can't wait for the weekend", or whatever; I'm enjoying this, it gives me a feeling of being alive really. So, I was enjoying it, so I did that for the whole year.
They brought in, funnily enough, a new Chief Executive around this time at the LTA who came in, typical chief exec, "Right, I'm coming in to chop and change", optimism, everyone's going to get made redundant.
Helen Tupper: I'm not sure all chief execs do that, but I can understand that's a stereotype!
Simon Mundie: Just speaking to the stereotype, and he did adhere to that. I saw an opportunity, so I went for voluntary redundancy, argued for it, got it. By this point obviously, I'd got a year's experience on a Saturday under my belt, somewhat embellished that, shall we say, on my CV, and I had the university degree as well. So, I applied for various radio stations, and one in Chelmsford offered me a job.
Then, about a week before I was due to start, I went to look at houses in Essex, leaving my friends in London, they called me and said, "Someone's quit in Ipswich, so basically you'll get a promotion before you start", because I was a bit older than everyone else and they were like, "Do you want to move to Ipswich?" and I was like, "Yeah".
Helen Tupper: They hear you're coming, and someone decides to leave!
Simon Mundie: Certainly the way things transpired, that may well have been the case. So, I moved to Ipswich, took a big pay cut. I was only earning £16,000, £17,000 having been earning probably late-£20,000s, doing the advertising sales. But as soon as I moved to Ipswich, left all my friends, left my girlfriend at the time who lived in London, I was on my own out there in Ipswich, never been to Ipswich before, but I had this feeling very quickly of, "Yes, I've made the right decision. My ladder's up against the right wall", as I often say, "I'm enjoying the work".
So, I was in Ipswich and I only stayed for a year. At the end of that year, I started getting a bit twitchy, I was like, "I want to come back to London". So, a job came up completely by chance, literally at the time that I was ready to leave, presenting sport on Virgin Radio as it then was, now Absolute Radio. So, I sent in a demo and I got it! I have been very lucky in terms of things falling in my lap. So, I worked at Virgin Radio/Absolute Radio for a few years.
Helen Tupper: Do you think you have been lucky, sorry, because I feel like if someone's listening, they'll be, "Simon's been lucky", but I feel like you were looking, so yes, it was there, but you were looking?
Simon Mundie: Yes, I do think that. I think my own personal philosophy, and there is no evidence of this, is that if you make moves and try and make things happen for yourself, and I know this is a big thing that you talk about, is taking charge of your own career and creating opportunities, not waiting for them to come to you, then in my experience, and in the experience of the people around me, if you have that attitude and you act in a powerful, rather than a powerless way, often, it seems to me, the cards will fall in a helpful way.
Now obviously, there's proof of that, but in my own life that has definitely been the case. All the way through, whenever I have been -- Jimmy Chin, Free Solo Director, Meru, the rescue, we spoke about before we started recording, I spoke to him and he's got a great phrase, "Commit and figure it out as you go along". Every time I've committed to something, radio and then various incarnations of that going forward, whenever I've committed and tried to figure it out, things have then gone my way. But I think it's that commitment and the attitude and trying to make things happen that then, it's almost like life seems to meet me halfway.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, it's a lovely way of framing it. So, you're committed, you've got your demo in, drivetime, they've given you the job?
Simon Mundie: They gave me the job. And then, I also used to do festivals for them and red-carpet events. V Festival, I used to do; I used to do the Mercury Awards, stuff like that. I was actually at the Pride of Britain Awards for the Daily Mirror and there was someone from Radio 1 there. I spoke to them and was like, "Are there any jobs going?"
Helen Tupper: Of course you did!
Simon Mundie: She said, "I'll give you the number and name of the Deputy Editor". In my mind I'm thinking, "Radio 1's far too good for me", the old imposter syndrome. So, I got the number and the name of this deputy editor and I found out, funnily enough, when I had been getting back into radio, I used to listen to LBC, and he'd presented the news. I used to literally record him, because I thought he sounded so good, and try and copy his radio news voice.
So, I got in touch with him and he said, "Come in and spend the day with us". So, I went in, they were getting ready to put all their programmes out, and I'm sitting there thinking, "This looks super-intense, there's no way I could work here". One of the first things he said to me was, "We've got no jobs currently and I can't see any coming up in the near future", and part of me was, "Thank God", if I'm honest. But at the same time, I then laid it on really thick. I'm like, "Just so you know, I used to record you and I loved your voice", etc. I got on really well with this guy. In fact, he and I are still really good friends, and this was shortly before Christmas, so I thought I'd send him a Christmas Card.
So, I sent him a Christmas Card thinking, "Just stay on his radar". It must have been January, certainly the first couple of weeks of January, he was like, "By the way, we've got a few shifts that have all of a sudden come up, I think in February or March", because obviously it's near the end of the financial year, everyone doesn't take their holiday, so everyone was taking holiday, so they had a few gaps in the rota. So he was like, "Come in, do a couple of days for free, we'll see if you're any good and then if you are, we might be able to offer you some shifts".
I went in, still remember my first day, my mum does too. I remember ringing her, because I OD'd on coffee; I drank too much coffee! I was literally at the back having heart palpitations and an anxiety attack at lunchbreak! And then, they got me to record a couple of packages and I remember the guy who was the political reporter at the time, I asked him for some advice and he gave me this fantastic line explaining, I don't know, exchange rates or whatever, and I nicked it and put it in my script. The Editor at the end came up and said, "That was a brilliant line".
Helen Tupper: Did you credit?
Simon Mundie: No! He only said it in passing and I thought, "That's a really good way of explaining it". And Radio 1's all about explaining complex stuff in a way that is digestible and easy to understand for young people. So, they liked my turn of phrase, or rather this other guy's that I'd nicked, and they got me in, and I was also covering the sport guy, because they knew I had a bit of background in sport. Now, here's the funny thing.
The guy who'd done sport had been there for the best part of a decade, it's what happens at Radio 1, it happened to me too, and his number two had literally been waiting all this time. But around this time, the number two did something, I'm still not sure what, but basically he fell out of favour. So all of a sudden, 2010, the main sports reporter's going off to the World Cup of South Africa, they need someone to cover Wimbledon!
Helen Tupper: It's all coming together! But what's the insight there is that you picked up the phone again, because you spoke to this person, back to that being brave enough to talk to someone that you don't know about an opportunity that you're just open to exploring; you've put yourself in a position where you knowingly don't know what you're doing, you know, you talk about that imposter syndrome. Yes, you had it, but also there was a reality that you've not done that job in that place before, but you still were willing to do it. And then, you quite strategically managed a relationship.
Simon Mundie: Yes, I think that managing a relationship is key, it's how do you stand out, little things. So obviously, being honest and open about the fact that I used to record his voice, people love having smoke blown up them, don't they, let's be honest.
Helen Tupper: But you genuinely did, it wasn't like you were lying.
Simon Mundie: It wasn't insincere, it was totally true. I really liked the guy and we got on really well. Then I think the Christmas Card touch; I think things like that are good, and I know you advocate stuff like this. It's the little touches that will just make, when they need to fill, for example, a rota, you're in mind, simple as that. So I think that was really fundamental. They said there would be no positions, but then there was, so you never know how the cards are going to fall.
Helen Tupper: So, you've got this dream job now, but it's not the end of the story. So, the thing that you were so passionate about, you've got the broadcast journalism, the tennis, it's all come together?
Simon Mundie: Well, I was doing news at that point still, but then the guy who was doing sport left after the World Cup, I'd done Wimbledon. I remember the guy saying, "Do you know anything about Wimbledon?"
Helen Tupper: "Let me tell you about my magazines!"
Simon Mundie: Obviously; pick a year! And I went to Wimbledon and I'd worked at Radio Wimbledon the three previous years, which is still the most fun job I've ever done, it was amazing. So, I was rehashing a lot of the ideas and videos I'd done. The guy who'd done the World Cup, they'd been a bit underwhelmed with what he'd done; I was making these cool videos, because I knew Wimbledon inside out. So then, when he left, the guy who had been the number two had been waiting for the best part of eight years. By now, he's out the way, so suddenly there's this gap.
I'm there, I've just done Wimbledon, which is the best place for me to showcase what I know. The then Editor, he kind of pressured me, he sent me the job application, he says, "I want you to apply for this!" I was like, "I've got to apply for this", so I did. And then, I got the job just after the summer of 2010 and there I was, sports reporter of Radio 1, thought I'd absolutely made it, thought I'd hit the big time and that was it. I was wrong.
Helen Tupper: Because I think that is interesting as well, both the "I was wrong", but also the, "I thought I'd made it", because there is a point where ego could creep in at that point and you'd be, "I'm now doing this super-cool job, I'm successful, I've got what I want", and I think that can also be a point at which, in your career, that can sometimes stop you being Squiggly, because you're like, "I've only got to do bigger and better from this point, and I'm now 'successful' and therefore, the only things that I would look at or consider would be literally a step up", back to the ladder language, "a step up from this, rather than a step across".
Simon Mundie: Do you know, that's absolutely right, and that became a big issue a few years later, because I anticipated being there for the London Olympics 2012, which was incredible, and then I thought I'd leave, so I was thinking two-and-a-half years; but it actually took me the best part of eight, nine years to extricate myself, and it's exactly what you say, "Where would I go?" I mean, at one point, I considered PR, I was doing screen tests for Sky Sports News.
But again, my intuition was like, "This isn't right for me". I'm not a big football fan, I would be doing it for ego, I'd be doing it because I get to wear a jazzy tie on TV, get paid a decent wage, but it was never right, so I never followed through on that. It's the same as why I never worked for Football Focus, because it's not me.
Helen Tupper: That, "It's not me", because obviously we talk to people about their values, and we have exercises like "more about me", where we encourage people to do that self-reflection and to write that down, was this a thing that you had sat down with yourself, with Simon, and written down some thoughts about, "What makes me me and what matters?" or is this just a gut feel, intuition?
Simon Mundie: Yeah, it's gut feel, because actually I tried to go against it. So, the good thing about -- listen, the Radio 1 thing was amazing, I got to do some incredible things, World Cups, Olympics, etc. But the thing I did most was cover football. So, I used to go to Wembley and I'd cover England matches, press room, getting cakes, the food. Honestly, it's like being again, the school pecking order; it's ridiculous, but fun. But I'd be there feeling like a complete fraud, because I was essentially; of all my friends, I was the one who cared the least about football.
I would sit there and I would be like, "Right, I'm going to commentate on this match, I'm going to practise my commentary, because at some point I might need to be a football commentator", and I'd try and do it. And after about 15 minutes, I'd get bored, so I'd put YouTube on. I'd be one of those people at Wembley, at an England game, watching tennis on YouTube!
Helen Tupper: Oh my goodness! But you were practising commentating at a game that you weren't going to commentate at, to develop a skill that you didn't know that you would need yet. That's interesting.
Simon Mundie: It is interesting, and I felt really bad. I felt bad that I couldn't do it for the whole 90 minutes, I thought, "I'm rubbish at this", but of course I'm rubbish at it, because I had no interest in it. My mind was telling me I should do this, just like my mind was saying, I should go to the Sky Sports screen test. But actually, my feelings were this isn't right and ultimately, my feelings proved to be right. And this is why I always talk about intuition.
So, my hunch is that your intuition knows more than your mind, and in my case, that's definitely proved to be the case. So, I could have chased the Sky Sports thing, I could have chased the Football Focus thing, but for whatever reason, I didn't. In hindsight, it makes total sense why I didn't, because I didn't want to do it, even though I thought I should do it.
Fast-forward, in about 2016, I met my now wife, and for whatever reason, I had a few epiphanies. I mean, there were reasons, but I won't go into them now, but I had a few epiphanies where I was like, "Okay, I'm going to stop waiting and I'm just going to --", I actually describe it as a "burn-the-boats attitude". What I mean by burn the boats is, it's the thing where I think there some explorers who went to an island, and they were like, "Right, we've got to make a success of this, and we're going to make a success of this by burning the boats so we can't get off the island".
So, I had a bit of an attitude like that where I was like, "Okay, I'm either going to create something, or I'm going to p-i-s-s people off so much that I'm going to have to leave".
Helen Tupper: Yeah, one way or the other.
Simon Mundie: Something or bust, right, that's it, that was my attitude. A quote I quite like is, "Middle managers can't say yes, but they can so no". So I thought, "Right, I'm not going to apply for any jobs, I'm not going to go through middle managers, I'm going straight to the top, I'm going straight to the top people. I identified and went straight to the Head of TV Sport to talk about getting on TV at Wimbledon, because I was already covering it for Radio 1 and I was doing some digital stuff; and I went to the Head of the Today Programme to speak about doing some stuff there.
Helen Tupper: Do you think you had to have whatever that revelation was; do you think you have to have that point in time in order to have your burn-the-boat strategy? Could it have come sooner?
Simon Mundie: The truth is, I was probably actually working through some personal stuff before that that I needed to go through to get to that point, I think actually. A lot of people talk about work/life balance; to me, it's just life. So, they were all part of the puzzle actually, and I think probably meeting my wife was another one. And then, just feeling like I was getting older as well, "Oh my Lord, I need to start doing something, I can't just sit here and wait and expect".
Helen Tupper: But I guess the thing that I take away from that is, when you're looking at your job, there is the job itself and how rewarding it is, or not, for you; but sometimes, it sounds to me like there was a bit of time at Radio 1 where that role that you were doing created space for you to reflect on some other things. So, you kind of have to look at the job in the context of your life and what it might be enabling outside of just the job you're doing?
Simon Mundie: Yeah, absolutely, that's what I mean, it's all one thing. So, that's why I think, if you can find a job that you love doing, or that gives you feelings of flow or whatever, then you're not looking forward to retirement, because it's part of what you enjoy.
Helen Tupper: It's part of the life you're living.
Simon Mundie: Yeah, it's what you want to enjoy. And my thought was, because since the age of 10, it's always been about Wimbledon and tennis, my thought was, "It's all about TV at Wimbledon; that's it for me. And then from there, I can go off and do TV in different areas".
So, let's say between probably early 2017 and then Wimbledon 2018, so the best part of 18 months, just shy of, I got in touch with the Head of TV Sport, and I would be emailing and getting in touch saying, "Can we have meetings?" so often. And every time I wrote an email, the voice in my head would be going, "He's going to tell you to do one".
Helen Tupper: It's because you've got the, burn the boats, because I think a lot of people would be thinking, "I'd be worried about being irritating".
Simon Mundie: I was worried about being irritating.
Helen Tupper: But your burn-the-boat strategy meant, "Well, I'm going to do it anyway. What have I got to lose? I'm in a role I don't want to be in anymore".
Simon Mundie: Exactly. It's more important that I make something happen than I irritate someone. I'm willing to irritate someone to try and make something happen. So, it was really a question of priority. My dad's got a lovely phrase which is, "It's the squeaky wheel that gets fixed", I'm sure you've heard it before. It's like, you've got to make noise.
So, I shouldn't admit this, but I'd be like, "I've got this brilliant idea, can we have a meeting?" He'd be like, "Sure, yeah, my secretary can help us arrange a time". And then I'd be like, "Right, Alex [my wife] can you help me come up with an idea?"!
Helen Tupper: At least she gets credited this time, not like the person whose line you took!
Simon Mundie: Listen, she has been fundamental for sure. We've got each other's back, I think, in the sense -- and I think having a support network, I know you talk about this a lot, is really important. So, having someone who believes in you and encourages you and can see things more objectively than you, because we're all great at giving other people advice; but when it comes to ourselves, that inner critic voice can get in the way, and it's about stepping out of that. So, she was important.
So, I just harassed him and his number two for the best part of a year, whilst at the same time doing similar with the Today Programme. A quick story: I remember, I sat down with the Head of the Today Programme, and I got on really well with her, and I just thought, "Do you know what, I'm just going to be honest", and I just started slating the fact that football takes up so much coverage in broadcasting. And then I was talking about tribalism, and how the tribalism of football reflects tribalism in so many other areas, and how sport is either, when it comes to broadcasting, a language you either speak or you don't and actually, we could be doing it in a way to make it more appealing to people who are only somewhat interested, and she was like, "I love it, I love it!"
Anyway, just before Wimbledon 2018, I still don't know if I'm going to be working at Wimbledon on TV, and I'm actually in Liverpool, I think, doing a story for Radio 1. My phone rings and it's the Head of the Today Programme. And she's like, "Simon, I want to create a role for you", the reason being, the BBC at the time were like, "We've got to focus on youth", and I was considered the youth for the Today Programme! She was like, "I want to create a job for you". I was like, "Cool, sounds good".
I went back to the office a couple of days later. There's a guy at my work who's a bit of a consigliere, bit of someone I liked. I spoke to him and he's like, "Simon, you should do a podcast". I'm like, "Of course I should do a podcast!" So, I went and had this meeting with the Head of the Today Programme and said, instead of what she had in mind, which was me going out and doing packages and reporting from live, I was like, "Give me a podcast". She obviously thought, "Podcast, youth, done, you can have it".
Don't Tell Me the Score was born, credit for the name -- by the way, it's changed anyway, it's now
Life Lessons: From Sport and Beyond. But the reason it was called Don't Tell Me the Score was to differentiate it from the rest of the coverage on Radio 4, which is all score, tactics, all that stuff. My wife came up with it. So, yeah, I got this podcast. They agreed it just before Wimbledon 2018.
Helen Tupper: And again on that, I think the thing that I'm taking away, well two things, that you pursued possibilities in parallel, so you were doing that thing where you were like, "Let's see what it could be like at the BBC if I contact those people", and then obviously contacting the Today Programme, so there were multiple things that you were exploring, which I don't think a lot of people do that. I think that's something to take away when people are thinking about crazy possibilities.
But also, the role that someone offered you was not the role that you accepted, having the confidence to iterate that role, even when you went in it.
Simon Mundie: Yeah. I think like I said, at this point, I'd let go of the idea of what I
should be doing and had embraced the idea of, "What do I
want to do?" I'd gone through a few things at the BBC actually where I was like, "Okay, you've got to care about your own career", because actually big organisations sometimes can't, in the way you want them to, and I think people need to realise that; because corporations, by their very nature, particular once they get over a certain size, can't look after you or care about you personally in the way we all want to be cared for.
So, yes, she offered me this, we agreed this podcast, and I remember my wife saying, "I think this podcast is going to be really important for you", but I'm like, "No, it's all about Wimbledon". So, Wimbledon 2018 starts, I still don't know if I'm going to be doing TV, so I thought, "I know what, burn the boats", so I went and bought two ice creams, went up to the TV production office, walked in with these two ice creams, Cornettos they were, one was strawberry and one was chocolate, and I gave them to the number one and the number two. I said, "Here you are --"
Helen Tupper: "I just bought you an ice cream"!
Simon Mundie: "-- I bought you an ice cream!" and one of them said, "All right, in you go", into the production office, into where they were planning, and I got my break and the chance to do some filming. And I was still working at Radio 1 and the Today Programme, so I was having to fit it around my radio work, but they gave me an opportunity to record a few things, and I obviously impressed them enough that they invited me back for 2019.
But the interesting thing was, then after Wimbledon 2018, the podcast started, and very quickly it became clear that this was going to be more important. Then, I won't explain how this happened, but I got approached about doing a book based on the podcast, because someone really liked it. And then the podcast sort of iterated as well, I would say, into becoming much more about life; because my idea initially was just about the tribalism of football and what that could tell us about, for example, the tribalism of Brexit or the tribalism of politics in America, or COVID now. And then it's just grown and I've covered all these things.
The funny thing is now, I would say my career is increasingly going in the way of the podcast. So, I suppose the takeaway for me is, it was that burn-the-boats attitude, that kind of create something for myself, and in my mind had this idea that it was all about Wimbledon. But actually, it's been more about the podcast and where that's leading me, which is in a very different tangent now. And sports broadcasting and TV, for example, that's not where my career's going. It's just interesting that what my mind had, the plan that my mind had, is not where I'm headed, and I'm grateful for that, because the direction I'm going in really interests me and feels much more right for where I'm at. But I still get that thrill of doing Wimbledon that satisfies my inner child, if that makes sense.
Helen Tupper: If there was one piece of advice that you'd give to that person listening now who's thinking, "I'd like to try and be a bit more Simon-like in how I'm looking after my career"…?
Simon Mundie: I would say two things. First of all I would say, tune into your intuition. I remember feeling really bad for a long time I didn't have a five-year plan. Now, I wouldn't, I'm grateful I didn't have a five-year plan. Also, I don't regret the sales at all, because it actually made me grateful for the BBC work, whereas a lot of people who went straight into the BBC almost became, I don't want to use the word "institutionalised", but don't realise what else is out there. So, I'm grateful for that, I've got no regrets about the sales career at all.
So, I would say follow your intuition. If you have a feeling that something isn't right then, in my experience, that tends to be true. So for me, experientially, my intuition through my working life has proved itself to be right over, for example, my mind, my thoughts about what I should be doing. So, that would be number one.
Then the other thing I would say is, get in front of people, speak to people. When I was doing my podcast, the Controller was on one floor above me at the BBC. I never sent her an email, I would just rock up at her desk like you wouldn't believe! And we became good friends. I'm very grateful to her, she's a lovely woman, and that relationship was fundamental, so I created this very close relationship by dint of the fact that I would just rock up at her desk and just chat, I became really in with their team.
So, I think that creating a relationship, speaking to people, getting in front of people, going above and beyond, authentically, not to get something; because I think if you're going to get something out of someone, or trying to get something, people feel it.
Helen Tupper: Transparent.
Simon Mundie: People feel it, yeah. So, go there authentically, and I think just being interested in people. I just try and talk to people like I would talk to a friend. Why treat people differently? It's this idea of whether it's a celebrity, someone working behind the bar, working in a restaurant, people change their persona. No, just treat everyone the same and just speak to them like they were your friend. For me, that kind of relationship-developing, getting on the phone, like I do everything on the phone now where previously it was in person, that would be the thing.
So, yeah, intuition and creating relationships, and asking for what you want, a squeaky wheel!
Helen Tupper: Yeah, very true, be a squeaky wheel! I like leaving it with your dad's advice. It feels like passing that wisdom on.
Simon Mundie: Good old dad.
Helen Tupper: Maybe he'll listen to this podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and your story with us, I just find it really fascinating. It's a really interesting insight into a world of work that I haven't experienced, but I think the way that you've created the opportunities for yourself is really fascinating and lots to learn from, so thank you.
Simon Mundie: One very final thing. I left the BBC full time, and it was in the middle of the pandemic and it didn't seem the safe option. So, people were like, "Oh, the safe option would have been to go back to Radio 1". I left. A couple of months after I left, everyone at Radio 1 was told they would have to move to Birmingham. Safety within an organisation, in my opinion, is an illusion. So, I think being brave, taking risks, commit and work it out as you go is really good advice as well.
Helen Tupper: Thank you so much for listening to today's podcast, and if you've been inspired about how you could create some opportunities to develop in different directions and need some support with your skills, then the government's Skills for Life website is a great place to get started. The link to it is
gov.uk/skillsforlife. We'll put that link in the show notes too, and you can always email us to find it as well. We're just
helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com, but there are so many free courses and resources there to support your learning, whether you want to know a bit more about coding or presenting or green skills, it's all there and they're all run by experts in the areas, and most of them can be done remotely and they are free. So, go and have a look if you would like to learn a bit more.
But thank you very much for listening today. Sarah and I will be back together next week talking about another topic to support you with your Squiggly Career. Thank you everyone, bye for now.
