Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:00:54: Reputation ripples
00:02:54: Three versions of your reputation
00:04:36: Reputation matrix
00:06:27: The four matrix quadrants
00:07:54: Get feedback on where your reputation is
00:10:34: Quadrant 1: exploring the unknown
00:11:21: Idea for action: get some reputation inspiration
00:16:19: Quadrant 2: reducing the inconsistency
00:17:01: Idea for action: realign your time
00:20:19: Quadrant 3: speak up
00:21:38: Idea for action: write down your speak-up statement
00:28:25: Quadrant 4: increase your advocacy
00:28:54: Idea for action: increase your advocacy
00:33:12: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen Tupper.

Sarah Ellis: And I'm Sarah Ellis.

Helen Tupper: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where each week we talk about the ups and downs and ins and outs of our Squiggly Careers, and hopefully give you some helpful things to help you navigate it, and lots of ideas for action that you can take away after listening.  Today, we are going to be talking about how to own your reputation at work.  It is a topic that Sarah and I, we've written about three different formats for this conversation today, everyone, because we've tried to make it as practical as possible; but reputation is a really, really big topic!  And, I've managed to make us have a matrix.  We've been missing a matrix on the podcast for a little while, Sarah, and today is a matrix moment!

Sarah Ellis: Brilliant.  I think we could have kept talking about this for even longer.  So, it's a good one hopefully to get you started and to really think about the actions you can take to build your reputation.  And, we're reflecting on, why does reputation matter in the work that we do and in the careers, and where our careers could take us.  I think it's really important.  If you know what you want to build your reputation for and that intent is consistent with the impact that you are having, you are much more likely for yourself, I think, to spot opportunities to do more of the work that you want to do, but also to be spotted for work and for possibilities and opportunities. 

I think, because you never now know in Squiggly Careers where your career could take you, Helen described this to me at it really made sense in my mind, as your reputation ripples.  So, once you know what you want to build your reputation for, if you can create as many reputation ripples as possible, you just stand more of a chance, I think, of doing interesting work that feels really meaningful.

Helen Tupper: It's interesting, I was at a party last night, so we're recording early in the morning now.  I was at a party last night where I met lots of people that I wasn't aware of, but they were aware of me because my reputation ripples, I think, had gone quite far in the work that we do, and there was quite a lot of consistency of what I was known for in that particular room.  So for me, that's quite a signal of, the ripples are going quite far, and they're quite consistent in terms of the reputation.

Sarah Ellis: I think you can't underestimate how powerful advocacy from other people can be in your careers.  Certainly, it's had a really positive impact on me.  I know there are things that I wouldn't have got involved in, projects, roles, opportunities that wouldn't have come my way if it wasn't for some of the advocates I've had.  And also, let's be honest, it's way better if someone else says that you're really brilliant, rather than you having to say that you're really brilliant!  And I think just other people, that whole what other people say about you when you're not in the room, is just really useful to make sure that you know what that is, and is that what you want it to be.

They're some of the dots that I think we're trying to connect today, is that sort of what you want to stand for, and then what you're actually standing for, answering some of those what are quite big questions; and then figuring out, how can you do an even better job of that. 

So, what is reputation in the context of your career and you at work?  We got to three versions and you can pick the one that's your favourite: one, what you are known for; two, what people say about you when you are not in the room; and also somebody always used to say to me, and it's always stuck as a way of describing your reputation, is that it's the shadow that you cast.

I think you want that to be consistent with what you want to stand for, what you want to be known for; and then what you're actually known for, what all those people are saying about you, you want those things to be the same.  You don't want to think, "Well, I want to be an incredible problem-solver, and that's what I want to build my reputation for", and then everybody's off talking about you being the best organiser in the world.

Helen Tupper: So, the way that we've structured the podcast is we've got a matrix which will help you to assess your reputation today based on two dimensions: what you say about yourself and whether you say that with clarity and confidence; and also the work that you do, whether the work that you do is consistent with what you want to be known for, and you have credibility for it.  So, we'll talk that through in a second, but where you plot yourself on the matrix will then result in some of the actions that we're going to talk about that you can take away from today, so that you can really take control of what you want to be known for, essentially.

We appreciate that sometimes, talking about a matrix on a podcast isn't the easiest thing to do, so we've also visualised this in the PodSheet, and you can get the PodSheet by going to the link in the description of this episode, or just by going to amazingif.com, and then on the podcast page, you'll find it there.  And if you can't find it, if you're like, "Where is this PodSheet that they're talking about?" just email us at helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com, and we will send you the link.  But this is probably one that would be a really good one to download that PodSheet, and do alongside whilst you're listening.

So, let's talk about this matrix then.  So, two dimensions: "say" and "do".  So, imagine say to begin with, you could be high say, so that means you are talking about what you want to be known for with clarity and confidence, so that might sound like me saying, "I want to be known for being a careers expert".  Or actually, if you're not very clear or confident in talking about what you want to be known for, you'd be on a low say level.

Then there's the do dimension, so you'd be high on the do dimension if the work that you're doing was consistent and you had credibility with what you wanted to be known for, so for example, "How much of my time am I spending really building a reputation about being a careers expert; how much am I known for that?"  That would be high do.  And low do would be, "Actually, not a lot of my time is going into building a reputation for that thing".  So maybe there's something that I really want to be known for, but the job that I'm doing today or the way that I'm working today isn't really consistent with that. 

Just as an example to bring that to life, I would say when I was working at Virgin and Sarah and I had started the side project that's now our job, I wanted to be known for being a career-development expert.  I don't think I was that confident in talking about it, so on a scale of one to ten, I'd probably say I was about five.  I knew what I wanted to be known for, but I don't think I was confident enough to say it out loud in a way that I can say it now.  And actually, I was probably quite low on the do, because most of my working day was spent doing marketing, which I enjoyed doing, but it was really only in my side project that I was spending time slowly building that reputation.

So, think about where you sit on that.  Imagine the matrix, you've got high and low say and high and low do.  Now, depending on where you put yourself, you're in one of four categories.  So, I'll tell you what the categories are and then we're going to talk them through with some ideas for action for you.

So, let's imagine you are in low say, so you are not clear, you're not confident about what you want to be known for, and you're also in low do.  You're doing lots of different things and no particular reputation is standing out.  That territory is for you to explore the unknown.  You've got a bit of work to do, but actually quite a lot of opportunity in terms of what that could look like if you're in there, so we'll talk about the actions you could take.

Let's imagine now, you're high say, so you're clear and confident about what you want to be known for, but actually the work you're doing today doesn't really align with it, so you're high say, low do.  That's like the example I just talked about when I was at Virgin.  The action for us to take there, and we'll talk it through, but this is all about reducing the inconsistency.

The other quadrant is when you're high do, so you're doing a lot that is building a reputation, but maybe you're low say, so you're not very confident in talking about it.  What we need to help you to do there is to speak up, because the work that you're doing is speaking for you, but you're not representing yourself with confidence.  So, we'll talk about how you can speak up if you sit in that area.

The last one is a really strong place to be in, so it's when you're clear and confident about what you want to be known for, so you've got high say; and actually, a lot of your work aligns with that, you're high do.  What we want you to do there is, you will definitely be building a reputation for what you want to be known for, but we want you to go even further.  So, that quadrant is all about how you can continually invest in that area and get others to advocate for you.

Sarah Ellis: So, what Helen has just described will help you to think about, where do you think you sit on the matrix at the moment; so, where do you think you are in terms of your reputation?  But reputation really is about where other people see you, so it is really important to try and get that feedback in terms of where you are today.

So, for example, let's say I want to be known as somebody who creates ideas and makes change happen.  Then I think it's really useful to go and ask a range of different people, perhaps people you've worked with before, maybe your manager, some peers, people you don't know as well in the organisation, but you feel okay asking for feedback, a couple of questions that help you to figure out where they might plot you on this matrix.  Obviously, if you know someone really well, and maybe you're both listening to the podcast, perhaps they can just look at the matrix and tell you. 

But if Helen was my manager, I might say to Helen, "One of the things I'm really trying to build my reputation for at the moment is creating new ideas that deliver really positive change.  How much do you see me doing work that's consistent with that?"  Maybe you give people a scale of one to ten.  I think that can be helpful just to see.  If you think you're an eight and somebody says you're a five, that's quite helpful to understand.  And, maybe sticking with that scale of one to ten, "How much do you hear me talking about that as something I want to be known for?"

So, that really gets us to that first question, "How much do you see me doing work that's consistent?" gets you to the do; and, "How much do you hear me talking about that as something I want to be known for?" helps you get an indication of the say.  And it's not an exact science, but it does just help you to think about where do you think you are, and does that match with where other people think you are; because then, as we start to get into the ideas for action, if you put all of your ideas for action and all of your emphasis on one part of the matrix, and that's actually not where other people see you, you could be putting your energy and effort in the wrong place.

Now, one slight caveat to this is that I appreciate those examples I just gave are hard to do if you don't know what you want to stand for yet.  So, I just said I want to be known for developing ideas and creating change.  You've got to know the start of that sentence to be able to ask those questions.  So, you might be listening to this at the moment thinking, "I feel like I can't even go and get that feedback yet, because I don't know what I don't know; I'm not sure what I want to stand for", and that's absolutely fine as well.  Because, when we talk about exploring the unknown, that will help you get to some of those thoughts, or some of those ideas, that you want to explore further. 

That works really well if you've already got an indication or a bit of an inclination of what you do want to stand for, but please don't worry if you feel you're not quite ready to ask those questions yet.  That might be something you come back to in three months' time or six months' time.

Helen Tupper: Okay, so we are going to start with the exploring the unknown one.  So, imagine the matrix in front of you, this is the bottom-left box, and this one is where you've got low do, so you've got low consistency in what you're doing, and you've got low say, you've got low confidence in talking about what you want to be known for.  It's not a bad place to be, it just means we've got a bit of work to do.

So, the first question to ask yourself if this is where you think you are is, "What do I want to be someone's go-to person for?"  And as Sarah said, you might be able to name that really quickly, or you might not, but you do need to spend a bit of time thinking about it; because if you don't know what you want to be known for, if you don't know what you want to be someone's go-to person for, it's very hard for you to consistently build a reputation around anything.

So, think about that, give that question some time, don't worry if you can't answer it straightaway.  But what might help you as an idea for action is to get a bit of reputation inspiration.  So, think about, "Whose reputation do I admire?"  Now, that could be someone you work with, or someone who works in your organisation, or it could be someone that you don't know.  It might be someone that you, I don't know, you follow and admire on social media, or somebody that has been introduced to you in your past.  It doesn't have to be somebody who's in your direct career community.

But when you know that person whose reputation you admire, think about why does their reputation resonate with you?  So, I was talking to Sarah about Pip Jamieson.  I think I really admire her reputation.  She founded an organisation called The Dots, she's a female tech founder, she has got investment.  So, there's lots of things that I look at when I look at Pip and think, "Wow, I really admire what you're doing and how you're doing it".  If I was to go into the why, I think it is because she is authentic, I think she is pushing the boundaries, I think she is unconventional and she is fun with it.  I think for me, she's making serious change, but doing it as a fun person, and that's what I really admire.

Then, the next question is to think about, "How could what they do well work for you?"  For me, I look at what Pip's doing in terms of technology and that change that she's making and think about, "Well, how could I be somebody who is making a serious change, but do it in a fun and engaging way?"  That, I suddenly want to hold that as part of my reputation, and you can get to something that feels a bit more distinct, a bit more different, when you start to look at other people and think how you could apply that to what you might want to be known for too.

Sarah Ellis: I think the other point here, when I was reflecting on this in my career so far, you can build a reputation in one thing and you can change your mind.

Helen Tupper: 100%.

Sarah Ellis: You can reserve the right to change your mind, or you can reshape that reputation as you go through your career.  In fact, I imagine that's what most of us do.  In our Squiggly Careers, it's pretty rare that you build a reputation for one thing and that stays still and stays the same.  So for me, earlier in my career, I really remember a moment of seeing someone on stage who I didn't know and just thought, "Wow, they have such a big impact, such a brilliant impact on me", and they were so down to earth.

So, back to your point, Helen, about why did they have such a big impact on me.  What's really interesting is, it wasn't because they were so much of an expert, or I was like, "Oh wow, amazing, they're standing on a big stage"; I just remember thinking, "They're really normal, and they're really brilliant at the same time", and that's possible; it's possible to be both of those things.

I think at that point in my career, I'd got quite a lot of a veneer that I was putting on every day when I was going to work in terms of what I thought I should be, what I thought I should look like, how I thought I should act.  And to see someone being so clearly just themselves and being in a very, very senior role, I was like, "Oh, okay", it helped me to reimagine what my reputation might be, and also to claim for yourself what makes you distinctive.

So I think, almost at that point, I hadn't really built a reputation, because I wasn't sure whether some of the things that made me distinctive were the right things.  I was like, "Oh, but I've got to try and be more grown up than I actually am in real life; or to your point, is it okay to have fun or to be personable be quite down to earth?  I think seeing that person that day just helped me to get a bit more clarity on, "Okay, I can still have aspirations to go into really senior roles and build reputations for ideas and creativity, but that doesn’t mean losing my personality".

So, I think if you in the exploring the unknown, don't feel you have to move too quickly to any other part of the matrix.  I think I enjoyed exploring what I was going to build my reputation for in quite a conscious way for two or three years; that was a discovery process from getting inspiration from other people, and then thinking, "It's not about comparison.  What does this mean for me; what does this mean in terms of what I want to stand for in my career?"

Helen Tupper: I was just thinking as you were talking about the increasing career pivots, and almost every time you make a pivot, so maybe you're going into a completely different career, or you're pivoting into a different organisation or industry, I think it's almost good to go back to this point in the matrix and think, "What do I want to be known for now, and how could I do that and who do I admire in this area?" all those sorts of things.  Take yourself back.  This is quite a dynamic thing in a Squiggly Career, how you build your reputation.

Sarah Ellis: And if you want to see that in action, I was rereading my LinkedIn recommendations, and I think you can spot the point where I started to reshape my reputation away from marketing and working in really large organisations, to being someone who had the aspiration to being a career expert and was running their own business.  I think you start to read those recommendations, and you just start to see it.  But there are also some consistencies, which we'll talk about.  It is just quite interesting to spot and notice those moments where you are doing a bit of reshaping, and know that that's really possible.

Helen Tupper: So, let's move to another part of our matrix now.  We're going to go to the top-left box of it.  So, this is where you're clear and confident about what you want to be known for, so you can say it out loud; but actually, maybe the work that you're doing isn't consistent with that every day.  Maybe this is where you're trying to make a bit of a shift, you've got that intention and you can talk to other people about it, but actually the reality of your day-to-day work doesn't quite align with it.

A really good question here to ask yourself is, "How much of your week are you spending on work that doesn't help to build your reputation?"  Again, that might not be bad work, but it might not be the work that you want to do as you're really focussing on building this reputation for the thing you want to be known for.  And the idea for action here is to start to realign your time.  I think it is important to note that this also takes a bit of time.  You don't put yourself in that box and go, "Right, tomorrow I'm going to do a completely different job in a completely different way and I've completely changed my reputation".  It does take a little while to reduce that inconsistency, but it can be something that you can take control of.

So, some of the ways that you can do this are job crafting, so think about the job that you do today, and how in the team or the job that you're in, how you could be doing more of that thing that you want to be known for.  So, Sarah mentioned ideas, for example.  Let's say that wasn't what she was known for today, there was a bit of inconsistency.  Maybe she could look at, "What projects could I start and how could I be involved in the kick-off of projects, when my idea strengths would really stand out?" for example. 

Talk about that with your manager and when you're talking about it, make sure you talk about what the benefit could be for them.  So, rather than just being about you and your career and what you want to be known for, think about how that could create value for your manager, for your colleagues, for the other stakeholders in the business.

Also think about what you might be able to do outside of work as well.  Your reputation is more than just your role.  What we want this to do is be consistent in all the places you are, so if you volunteer or if you have a side project, or maybe you're involved in some communities around your career, think about how you could make that reputation stand out in those different places with those different people as well.  Again, volunteer, put yourself forward, you might need to put a bit of extra effort in here to find some new opportunities for you to use that thing that you want to be known for.

In order to make time for the thing that's going to build your reputation, you might have to let something else go that's not.  So, part of this realignment is both finding new things, but maybe letting some of the old things go.  Now, that probably is something that needs to be done in your business, it's probably why you're doing it in the first place.  So, it can be really useful to find somebody else who actually, doing the thing that you're doing today, might help them to build their reputation.

I'll give you an example.  When I was at Microsoft, somehow, I don't really know how, but I ended up getting involved in events, because I think people were like, "Helen can move things forward fast and fix things and do things", and I became a bit of a go-to person when a big event needed to be sorted, because someone senior was coming to the UK.  That really wasn't what I wanted to be known for.  I could do that and I could work on it and I could manage the stakeholders, but it wasn't really the thing that I wanted to be known for.  And, spending my time on that was inconsistent with the reputation that I wanted to be building as a careers expert and a leader and a manager who helped other people be at their best.

So, one of the things that I did was I started to think about, "Well, how can I shine more of a spotlight on what I want to be known for?  But how could I find an opportunity for somebody else to do this thing that I need to stop doing?".  So, there were other people that would really benefit from spending time doing that event-organising activity, for example; it would be good for their career, it would be good for their connections, and I almost had to make that transition and trade for me to spend more time doing the things that would help me; I also had to think, "Well, who can do this thing that ultimately helps the business?"

You just need to manage that.  I don't think you can just drop things that you don't want to do, because I think that could affect your reputation in other ways.

Sarah Ellis: Okay, so now we're in the bottom-right of the matrix, I hope you're all with us!  I've got absolutely no idea whether I could listen to a podcast about a matrix and follow, but hopefully it's making sense, even if you can't quite visualise the matrix.  We're now in high do, low say.  So this is, you are doing lots of the right things, taking lots of the right actions, you're behaving in a way that builds your reputation on that thing that you want to be known for; but you don't feel very confident talking about it, you don't feel confident saying it out loud.  So, this is all about speaking up.

A good question to ask yourself here is, "What scares you about speaking up?"  It's useful here to get to, what are our fears; what's holding you back.  Is it, you actually feel really confident what you want to be known for, you've just got to find a way of doing it that feels authentic to you, that doesn't feel fake?  I think there's a lot of nervousness about not wanting to feel fake or inauthentic.  Or, perhaps there's a worry about, "I don't want to be seen as arrogant or egotistical".  Honestly, those people who always think that are the least arrogant people, I promise you.  If that's what's going through your head, I always think, "They're not the people that we need to worry about".

So, maybe it's a bit about ego, maybe it's even about when would I do this and how would I do this?  So, maybe it's a practical thing, maybe it's a mindset thing.  But just figure out what your fears are, because that might help you a bit with the actions that you need to take.

The first thing here that can be helpful, the idea for action, is just to write down your speak-up statement.  You've not got to share this with anyone, this doesn't necessarily have to go anywhere, but it's to help you have that clarity and confidence with, "What is it you want to say; what does it sound like?" so you've at least got that as a starting point.  Some exercises that might help you to do this, and you can do all of these or just pick one of them, so you could do, "Well, what would you say in a tweet?" which I think is now 240 characters; is that right?

Helen Tupper: I don't know!

Sarah Ellis: A short sentence/tweet.  I feel like that used to be quite a good way of describing things, but now that they've changed stuff, we obviously don't know the rules enough; but a short sentence.  Maybe have a go at what would one sentence, three sentences and five sentences say, so just to challenge yourself for having different constraints and see where you go.  Sometimes when you right a bit more, you might realise your fifth sentence is actually the most important one.  Sometimes having the constraint of just one sentence is useful.

What would this sound like in third person?  Now, we both had a go at this almost automatically without realising we were doing it, which again I think is that point about sometimes saying, "I want to be known for being an expert in career development" just sounds a bit strange, just doesn't sound like something we'd ever say out loud.  Whereas if we say, "Well, one of the things that Sarah is great at is she is a really credible career-development expert".  Somehow, by taking yourself out of the equation, it might help you to get to what you want those words to sound like and what those are that you want to say.  Again, no one's ever seeing this, so you've not got to worry about that.

If you were in an interview, maybe thinking about if somebody asked you the question, "What's the most important thing that you want to spend your time on; or, where do you have the most positive impact?" just thinking about the sorts of reputation-style questions you might get asked, and what do you want to say in return; and what do you want to be true when you get asked those kinds of questions.

So, that really is about having a play, no pressure, nobody really seeing those things.  And Helen and I had a little go, because I've never really written a speak-up statement.  I think I've thought about this, but lots of it has stayed in my head.  So, Helen, where did you get to first, then I'll share mine?

Helen Tupper: I go to, I'd like to be able to say clearly and confidently, "Helen is a catalyst that makes good things happen" was one of the things that I wrote down.  Then the other one that I wrote down was, "Helen empowers and energises people to be at their best".  And I think you know if this is right for you if when you say it, it feels really good.  I say that and I think, "Yes, that is totally what I want to be known for.  I'd love it if that was what I was building my reputation around".

I think you can almost feel this in yourself that this is something you want to own and identify with.  What about you?

Sarah Ellis: I got to, "Creating new ideas that have a positive impact".  And the second one was, "Credible and progressive expert in career development".  I probably would never say to someone the sentence, "I want to be a credible and progressive expert in career development", but that is what I want other people to say about me when I'm not in the room.  I probably would own the ideas one a bit more, because I love ideas, I feel it's a strength of mine, it's one of my values, and when I connect all of my dots together, ideas is always very present.  So, I probably would feel a bit more comfortable saying that one out loud.

So, I think the first thing you've got to get to with speaking up is being able to say it to yourself, which is what we've described so far.  Then you do have to figure out, what does speaking up look like for you?  That might be conversations with managers, conversations with mentors, with peers.  That might be things like thinking about how you show up on social media.

I always do find it really interesting when I look at somebody's LinkedIn summary and LinkedIn recommendations.  Can I spot what they're trying to build their reputation for in those places?  That might feel comfortable to you, and it might not.  I think there's no, "You must do a certain tick-box exercise to think about all the things that you need to do here".

But the one thing that I do believe is true, which Helen always says and has always shown up in my career, is that if you get really good and speaking what you seek, you will see what you say.  You just need to find a way of doing this that works for you.  I was thinking about practically how I've done this in the past, and I think it is often through using examples.  So, rather than saying a really concise, pithy statement, which I just feel like that's not my style --

Helen Tupper: You don't say!

Sarah Ellis: Helen's very good at that, but I don't automatically go to alliteration, which Helen's brain always does seem to.  But I think what I have got good at is sharing my stories, so using stories and examples to bring to life those things I want to build my reputation for.  So, if I am meeting someone for the first time, if I am chatting to a mentor about something, I think I have got used to being able to say, "I have really enjoyed the opportunity to work in a new role, in a new team and create all these new ideas in this particular area", and just almost talk with enthusiasm and passion about those things.

Then, by saying those things out loud, people are like, "Oh okay, that's obviously what she's good at, that's what makes her distinctive".  Then I think you start to realise that the more you do that, the more that ripple effect, that reputation ripple that you described, does happen.  It's the accumulation of lots of behaviours and lots of saying it out loud over quite a long period of time.

Helen Tupper: Maybe it's the difference between a speak-up statement, which is quite short and pithy and works for me, and a speak-up story, which might feel a bit more natural and authentic to maybe someone like you.  The one thing I would say with the speak-up statements, is this is a mixture of you having clarity about what that statement is, and the confidence to talk about it. 

I think it's useful to have what you've written down close at hand, so that it feels familiar; like it's on a Post-it Note in your book, because you don't want to be remembering and reimagining it all the time.  I think you want that clarity.  So, if it's in front of you, if I had, "Helen empowers and energises people to be at their best", then I think I would find more opportunities to talk about it if I didn't have to rethink it all the time as well.  So, I think write it down somewhere that you can see it, and I think it just helps it to say top of mind for you.

Sarah Ellis: Actually, then it quite appeals to me, ironically, to get even more reductive.  Because, if I was just, "What are the words that I'm looking for?" I would just think, "Ideas and impact, progressive career".

Helen Tupper: And I would think, "Energise and empower".

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's really interesting to see where you go, because I was rereading my statements then as you were talking and I was thinking, "If I'm just going to shortcut some of these, it would be careers, but definitely with a word that was like "progressive" or "innovative" or "with change" or "do things differently".  The credible bit would be the bit that I would lose.  So, that's also quite interesting.

Funnily enough, I can't do pithy statements, but then I really enjoy editing, as Helen knows!  So then I'm like, "What's the real shortcut; what's the one or two or three words that you are continually looking out for, for yourself, but also in terms of what other people are saying about you?"

Helen Tupper: So, our last box, everybody, is the top-right box, and this one is where actually, you're in a really strong position.  So, you've got confidence and clarity in what you're saying about what you want to be known for, so you're high on the say; and actually, you've got an awful lot of consistency and credibility in what you're doing.  So, this is strong, you're building the reputation here that you want to be known for.

But we just don't want you to stop there, because you can probably have bigger ripples, you can probably go further with this and take your reputation to new places.  But what you need to do is increase advocacy, so this isn't just you talking about what it is that you want to be known for and the impact that that has, you've got other people sharing this on your behalf.  Because, when they start talking about your reputation and the impact that you have, it will open doors that you might not be aware of, or that you might not have access to.  So, this is how you can go further and faster with your reputation in your career.

So, the question here to help you increase advocacy is, "Who would be your dream advocate?"

Sarah Ellis: It's such a good question.

Helen Tupper: Isn't it?

Sarah Ellis: Who would be your dream advocate?  I already know the answer to mine.

Helen Tupper: Do you really?

Sarah Ellis: Yeah.

Helen Tupper: Who would be my dream advocate; so, who do I want to really talk up what I want to be known for about empowering and energising people?  Probably an amazing leader, someone like Satya Nadella, whose growth mindset is amazing at Microsoft, and here's a great example of somebody who's empowering and energising people with growth mindset.  I mean, that would be a massive ripple!  Who's yours?

Sarah Ellis: Again, I think we're just talking about people that we want on the podcast, just to see if it help us; that's what we end up doing!  I was thinking, in terms of progressive careers, Adam Grant, if he was saying -- I noticed that he said about Oliver Burkeman's book, which we've had Oliver on the podcast, Four Thousand Weeks, brilliant book and Oliver's great; Adam said about Oliver, "It's the go-to book on time, it's the only book you need to read on time and time management".  I was like, imagine if he said about us, I thought I'd get to collective reputation at this point, "They are the progressive people when it comes to careers".

Helen Tupper: Okay, if anyone knows Adam Grant or Satya Nadella and could just arrange that for us…!

Sarah Ellis: Or just start saying that to them, and then just hope that they then start saying it out loud, that would be great!

Helen Tupper: Again, I think it's quite vulnerable for Sarah and I to say it out loud.  You don't have to say that to other people, but you do have to know that for yourself.  And the point here with advocacy is that you don't really go to these people and say, "Can you please go and say amazing things about me?"  You have to really think about, how can you build a relationship with that person?  We've gone to some very big, famous people, because we admire those, but this could be somebody in your organisation and you want to get closer to that person. 

When we had Sylvia Ann Hewlett on the podcast talking about sponsorship, which really this is a sponsor who's advocating for you and your reputation, what she talked about is the way to get a sponsor is first of all spot somebody.  So, not everybody has these advocacy and sponsorship behaviours, but you can spot them because they'll probably be saying good things about other people.

For example, Sarah said she spotted that Adam Grant is saying, "This book is the go-to on time", so obviously has an inclination to shine a spotlight on other people's work, and that's what you need to spot to begin with.  Then you need to think about, "How could I help that person?"  Before you go, "How could they help me?" think about what is something they're working on, something they're passionate about, perhaps a problem that you're seeing that they're encountering, and think about how you can help them, because the research around this shows that givers get more. 

When you start with what you've got to give to somebody, it's more likely that they will help you and your career and your reputation go further in the future.  Do you know who did that research?  Adam Grant.  We're totally full-circling on Adam Grant today!

Sarah Ellis: Also, I feel like now, he can't ever come on the podcast.  I feel like we've gone too far by saying, "We really want him on the podcast", he's turned us down quite a few times, and now I just think --

Helen Tupper: He turned us down very nicely.

Sarah Ellis: Oh, yeah, every time very nicely!  But you just feel like he never could now live up to the expectation that I've created in my mind about how good he would be!  Albeit, I would say, follow him on Instagram or Twitter, or wherever you like to hang out, because his single pithy statements --

Helen Tupper: Are gems, every one.

Sarah Ellis: They really are.  You just read it and you're like, "Yes, how are you able to be so --" he consolidates and creates these concise summaries of just really often quite complicated ideas.

Helen Tupper: Do you know what would be interesting: is that what he wants to be known for?!

Sarah Ellis: It would be!  Oh my God, he could come on the podcast and we could be like, "Adam, what do you want people to be saying about you when you're not in the room?" and then we could be like, "This is what we say about you all of the time, a couple of people sitting in the UK you've probably never heard of"!

Helen Tupper: Shall we do some reputation coaching with Adam Grant.  That is an episode that would be good to listen to.  Oh my goodness!  So hopefully now, you've got some ideas for action to support you with building your reputation.  As we started out saying, it's not always easy to get your head around a matrix on a podcast, so I definitely would recommend that you download the PodSheet and work it through, so that you can plot yourself, you can understand where other people might plot you, and then you can take the action that's going to help you most right now.

Sarah Ellis: So, we really hope this has been a useful episode.  There actually aren't loads of books or articles about this as a topic, so we've taken inspiration from one of my old bosses, Alex Cole, who got a voice message from me saying, "I think, when we think about reputation for companies, it probably applies to people.  What do you think, and here are some thoughts?" and very grateful to Alex who then came back to me with lots of, "Well, here are three things to think about, and here's a voice message", so thank you to Alex for doing that for us, because I do think there are lots of parallels between reputation as a team, reputation as an organisation, and then thinking about, "What does that mean for you?" in your career.

So, if you do see anything and you're reading about reputation generally, and I actually listened to a few podcasts before this on just reputation as an organisation, often you can then think, "What would that mean to me in terms of the work that I do and where my career could take me?"  I would just encourage everybody to not think of this as something where you'll get to a point where you're done, or to worry too much about where you are right now.

I think the main principle here is that you want to actively manage your reputation.  You want to think about, "What do I want it to be?" you want to know where I am, what other people think, and then you want to be taking continual actions.  If I think about the career one now, it did really make me reflect.  I was thinking, I think we have been building our reputation around careers since probably 2012.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I'd agree.  Yeah, it's taken us a while.  And we had to reshape that reputation quite a lot from marketing.

Sarah Ellis: Yeah, which I can't work out whether that's liberating for people to hear, or demotivating, because it does take a long time.  But I do think over time, you see almost you're making those small pivots as you go and you see that you are making progress.  But don't worry if you don't know the answers today; I don't think I would have known the answer to this for a fair few years in my career.  Also, I think I was trying to build a different reputation for quite a few years, and then definitely reshaped that in a new direction.

So, no right answer, but the main thing is to think, "Where am I today?  Where do I want to be?  What actions am I going to take?"

Helen Tupper: So, I hope you have enjoyed listening today.  Do let us know what you think and let us know how you found the matrix.

Sarah Ellis: Did the matrix make sense, because we took ages trying to get that matrix to make sense!

Helen Tupper: Do you want more matrices; let us know?!

Sarah Ellis: The answer to that is no!

Helen Tupper: Sarah might say no, but if you do, then this is the podcast for you and we will try to.  You can always email us at any time, we love to hear from you.  We're just helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com.  And, if you do like today's episode, please do rate, review and subscribe; it helps us to help more people with their Squiggly Careers.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you so much for listening, we'll be back with you again soon.  Bye for now.

Helen Tupper: Bye everyone.