Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:03:11: The three Ds to loving your work
00:04:09: Discovery - finding your "why"
00:07:43: Unlocking your code and your values
00:10:49: Discovery never really ends
00:15:16: Development - the four Ps
00:20:37: Delivery - the four lenses of meaning
00:26:42: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, you're listening to the Squiggly Careers podcast, and I am Helen, one of your hosts.  Today, I am not going to be joined by Sarah.  Instead, I'm going to be talking to Sophie Devonshire and Ben Renshaw all about how you can find your focus and love your work.  Their new book, LoveWork, is a really brilliant, practical read, there's lots in there.  I love the bit around values, because values is such a big part of what we do in our work with Amazing If, so I loved reading the book, I took a lot away from it.

This conversation was an opportunity for me to talk and dive a bit deeper into the book and share it with you, but really to help you find your focus on the work that you love so that you can be at your best.  So, I think anything that we can do to find focus with the work that we do and love it as much as possible, accepting that there's always good days and bad days, and highs and lows; but anything that we can do that is in our control, to help us to enjoy those days as much as possible, I think is time well spent.  Sophie's and Ben's work is really, really useful to help us work out what that looks like for us.

So, I really hope you enjoy this conversation as part of our Find Your Focus series.  Other conversations that Sarah had with Emma Gannon on Disconnection, and also Johann Hari around Focus and Attention also part of this series as well, but we'd love your feedback on it, everybody.  You can always email us.  We're just helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com.  But now, onto the conversation.

So, in terms of how we talk about this now, I thought we would take your 3D model, which will become clear to everyone that is listening, and break apart each stage, dive into each of the Ds, and really help people to understand how they can find their focus, and the practical action they can take to love work.  So, for summary maybe, Ben, would you mind just summarising what the three Ds are, and then we'll dive into the first one.

Ben Renshaw: Sure, would love to, Helen.  Thank you and really appreciate the context.  I think before starting, Sophie and I, we actually resonate massively with your approach, in particular this idea around building capability.  I think, when you're looking at something like LoveWork, and we are romantics and we love love, and your relationship with work is obviously a very significant one, we spend approximately 90,000 hours of our life working; but we are pragmatists.  So, we recognise that this is not about being in love, feeling in love every moment. 

But what we do absolutely endorse is the idea of building capability, and we break that down, just like yourselves, in terms of what's the right mindset, skillset and tools that help you love work on a more consistent basis.  So, I think if we start with that as the idea, that for all listeners here, it's not that we're expecting -- and everybody will be in different stages.  Some people, obviously with the last couple of years, they'll be in a place of just recovering from work; others will be seeking new opportunities people may be transitioning into new stages.  So I think wherever you are, our experience is that you can always become better.

So, I think with that in mind, if we look at LoveWork in terms of, as you say, these three Ds, in terms of bringing those to life and what they are: so, first stage is Discovery, so actually what does it mean to actually love work; secondly then is Develop, so how you bring that to life and make that happen; and thirdly, in terms of the Delivery, is making that really meaningful and matter for you on a more consistent basis.

Helen Tupper: So, let's start with discovery then, which I thought is the hardest place to start, it's a really important place to start.  But when I looked at some of the things that you talk about, like finding your fuel and opening your mind, I was like, "Wow, we're really getting to the 'why' behind the work in the very first stage of this model, and that's not easy".  So, how can people practically get started with, for example, finding your fuel, that's one of the things you talk about; how can you find your fuel and discover what's important to you about the work that you do?  What can people do to practically get started with such a big area?

Ben Renshaw: You're absolutely right, it is the real biggie.  What our experience is, is that a lot of people, for that reason, haven't had the right support or given it the time.  Everything that we suggest, it's simple, but not easy.  So, in terms of finding your "why", I think there are two key elements to that.  One is your energy, and secondly is meaning.  So, if you bear that in mind, and really three steps to help with that.

So, number one, when you're looking at finding your fuel, is what energises you, where do you really get your energy from, and what de-energises you.  I think that's a critical element, because I think in terms of loving your work, actually if you are fuelled by that, that really helps.  So, that would be a piece of exploration. 

Then secondly is about meaning, what matters, what's really meaningful for you.  So, I think that's an enquiry, and the best way into it is to reflect and look back at activities and times and experiences that you've had, where you've either been energised or not, where you've really had that experience of, "Look, this is meaningful", even if it's tough and you're up against a huge adversity, it's got meaning for you, which pulls you through.  And then you ask yourself, why?  Why was that important for you?  What was significant about it? 

What you'll then find is some themes, and you want to make those themes.  I'll give you a very quick example.  I'm coaching actually a lawyer at the moment, amazing guy, does massive deals, but he describes his work as "the grind".  He approaches each day and it's the grind, and he uses that language.  We've been able to break that down and actually, really find out what energises him. 

Actually, number one is intellectual curiosity, so he gets really fired up by the challenge and the complexity of the deals he does.  And number two is adding value.  Making meaning for him is actually adding value for clients.  So, we keep that top of mind, and why?  Because actually, that enables him to feel that he's really making a difference, which is his why. 

So, we would suggest, energy, meaning, reflect back, find out the big themes, and then crystalise that, and it's an iterative process.  As you begin to test it and challenge that and look at that in your work, it will begin to make sense for you.

Helen Tupper: It reminds me a little bit, actually, when you talk about the grind, and that person probably didn't even realise they were describing work like that, and you almost had to be a mirror to their language for them to realise it; and I had a point in my career where I had a conversation with a coach actually, and I remember I sat there and I hadn't caught up with them for a little while, and they were like, "How's it going, Helen?" and I sat there and I punched my hands, and I didn't even know I was doing it, but I was going, "Yeah, it's great, I'm really moving forward and pushing things on".

They stopped me in my tracks and they were like, "What's this punching thing that you're doing to yourself?" and I was like, "Wow, I've started to role-model some of the slightly aggressive behaviours that I was witnessing at work, and it really started to make me question about, "That wasn't my why".  I'd just tried to fit in around here and adopted someone else's why, and was actually being quite inauthentic.

But I guess the realisation for me was that somebody else had to be a mirror to my behaviour in order for me to get that insight, and that sounds like what happened in that situation with that person.  And, Sophie, I wonder whether, as you've been reflecting on finding your fuel and maybe unlocking your code in terms of your values, have there been any other people in your career that have helped you to get to that insight about yourself, or has it all just been a personal journey of discovery?

Sophie Devonshire: It's always a mix of both for all of us, I think, isn't it?  Because ultimately, working out your relationship with work and learning how to love work is about you, but it's also not just about you.  To have thinking partners, mirrors, accountability partners, other people around to reflect with you is incredibly valuable to help you unlock your code and work out how you work.  I really like the idea and the articulation of it, this unlocking your code, looking at your values, looking at your frameworks and trying to understand, because it is so hard to do this bit, this discovery bit, as you say. 

I think it was back in 1750 that Benjamin Franklin talked about the fact, "There are three extremely hard things: steel, diamonds and learning to know oneself", and it is so difficult.  So, the idea of doing it alone feels tough, right.  The reason we refer to the idea of unlocking your code and the reason why that helps me, is because I think understanding your values, understanding how to be authentically you and how you work, is one of those things which is a classic case of, in a super-busy, super-fast world, slowing down always then helps you speed up.  So, taking time to work out your code and your values and unlocking it allows you to move faster and further, but also in the right direction, with velocity; not just moving fast, making sure it's in the right direction.

Yes, for me, there have been moments when having other people help me with my Squiggly Career and working out which direction to go in has been absolutely invaluable.  I actually took some time a few years ago to really work out my own code, my framework, my values, with the help of a coach and some friends, and took the time to do it.  And it's painful to slow down to do that, which is why using things like frameworks and models can help. 

But we talk about love and the idea of work, and it is in part a provocation, the title of our book, because we know that it can't be all romps and roses, like any relationship.  But I also know that for me personally, I've had times when I've been passionately, deeply, madly in love with my work, and other times where I felt trapped and in a toxic relationship.  And so much of that is down to values, your code, so like a genetic code, that set of rules which translate the information to bring something into life; or, a computer code, which helps processing.

The LoveWork code, the understanding of values and your framework, can absolutely give you that filter and those values to make sure that when you go into something new, or when you reshape your current role, you're doing it in a way which fits.  Relationships and marriages, when they talk about and analyse why often they work, it's because there's shared values.  So, it makes it that bit easier to go into a team, or to go into an organisation and make sure that there is that alignment of values, so that if you're not a person who punches your hands, you're not necessarily in a place where you're hand-punching.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I came to that decision too!  And then, just in terms of discovery, do you think you're ever done with that phase?  I know, because of the way the model works, you move on from discovery, onto the next phase, which is about develop, and I'm just intrigued as to whether we discover and we're done, or whether we never really fully move on from that?

Ben Renshaw: I mean, look, in my experience it's ongoing and it's very iterative.  And I think that we go through chapters, and certainly all the people and leaders that I coach and support, you can absolutely see the chapters as they evolve.  So, I think one thing I've really observed and absolutely support people I work with, is if you keep that discovering mindset, because in a way that's what it is; we're talking about a mindset that is fuelled by lifelong learning.

Therefore, again, whatever stage you're at, and however tough and hard it is, you'll learn, you'll become a better, stronger version of you.  Certainly in my own experience, like the last couple of years when the pandemic hit, coaching wasn't exactly the number one thing for organisations to continue to invest in, because they were in crisis, they were in survival mode.  So, that actually then became a catalyst for me for my next level of discovery, which took me to Sophie and going, "Great, I want more partnership, I want to collaborate more deeply, I want to challenge my own thinking more, what better person to work with than Sophie", because if you want somebody to challenge your thinking, look no further!

Sophie Devonshire: It's good to hear that that's how you're still feeling about it all!  I think this is really important because, yes, the discovery process, that treasure hunt, is really valuable to do and to go into, to help as you shape things.  But it's like in relationships, that idea that there's a happy ending, that's happy ever after, that it stops with marriage, or it stops with finding a match.  People change, relationships change, and you will continue to change. 

Part of what drives so many people is continued learning, the practice and the development of it all.  What I'm really enjoying at the moment is conversations with people who are actually relatively advanced in their career, who are still rediscovering things.  There's a guy I was talking to this week who is 72 and just about to start a start-up. 

Someone else this week was talking about how they're, at the moment, having had two very intense years where they're going through the great reflection, the great re-evaluation that a lot of people are going through, and he was talking about how he was choosing what next, absolutely based around his purpose, his incredibly clear values, which he could articulate beautifully and sensibly, and the energy he had for the next period of his life, for making it matter, for really thinking it through and continuing to develop.

Definitely never over.  That's like saying relationships stop when you've met somebody.  It needs to be kept alive.  I think, what I feel good about with the book that I know is helping people, is that there are some very practical, tangible ways there to help with the discovery, with values, for example.  We talk about using a values journal, or using a values partner, who can mirror things perhaps, or values cards.  There are ways in which you can move faster through the discovery period.

But actually, what I hope we're doing with this book is talking about the fact that this is fundamentally a choice for people, the mindset piece is a choice.  You can believe that it is possible to love work more often, to flourish, to thrive rather than just survive and getting through it, to get something more out of it, but that does require work.  It isn't just about what your work and your employer does, it does require you to keep discovering, to keep developing and to keep the belief that you can do more and enjoy it more.

Helen Tupper: I agree, and I think when you talked about lifelong learning then, I think that work is just an amazing place to learn about yourself, like it's a lifelong self-learning about your attractions and what you find hard and what you find enjoyable.  So, I'm with you.  I think it's really good to have a foundation of knowledge to unlock your code.  But then I think about career data for your development, so keep accumulating that data, because it never really stops, so we shouldn't stop learning either.

So, let's go onto stage two then, and this is all about developing, and this builds on that point about capability that you mentioned as well.  And you talk about how you can keep us developing, and this 4P model as a way that we can do that.  I love alliteration; that's why I love the three Ds and now we've got four Ps.  Can you talk about how the 4P model can help people think about their capability and really support them with their development?

Ben Renshaw: Yeah, and again, look, what we find is that these are all really big topics, therefore the ability to break them down and simplify -- all of us, whatever stage we are, we can all develop our capability.  And we are huge advocates and fans of continuous improvement.  We love the work of James Clear and Atomic Habits, and this idea of just 1% better, 1% better every day.  And that's a very, very powerful concept.

So, I think for people listening, we would absolutely be encouraging you to break it down and so you really, really go, subject to your context, situation, where you are, one of two things that are going to help.  So, the first P is around Principles.  This is very much about you make decisions, where are you coming from.  I think once you've found a little bit more of your code and what matters to you, what's the criteria by then you make those trade-offs? 

I'll give you a quick example.  Working with somebody who's just experienced two real setbacks in their career.  So, they've been wanting to get onto an executive committee, they've been overlooked twice in the last three years, and obviously that kind of experience, you're right on the verge of just quitting and walking away and going, "I'm done".  Now, they are a very, very valued member of the organisation, they've been there a long time, so we've had to go right back to their principles and their decision-making criteria to enable them to come through.

So, out of that, they've used their sense of purpose, which they describe as the art of the possible, and then the second P is around People.  So then, you're looking at how can you then engage and inspire and work with others in order to really get your energy and build upon that?  So, this individual then actually, they have tremendous leadership capability.  So, what they're actually taking is a bigger role in the organisation.  Through that disappointment, they're translating that and going, "Well actually, I'm going to invest in others, and I'm actually going to put that discretionary effort there".

The third P is Process, which is all about delivery and drive for results.  This individual, they are hugely driven, massive appetite, but actually what they need to do is be able to deliver through others more.  So again, they're using this setback and this opportunity to go, "How can I lift up, build a better, high-performing team, engage in others more?"  And the fourth P is around Profit, and that real commercial lens that you have. 

So again, for this one individual, they're actually really focusing on how can they build their commercial acumen.  They're looking at more in terms of data and digitalisation in the next wave and generation to become better equipped; so taking a setback and actually using the four Ps: principles, people, process and profit, to really challenge themselves to come out better and stronger.

Helen Tupper: Yeah, it's so interesting, we've just put a podcast out about dealing with disappointment.  But basically, whilst on the surface, January looked quite shiny for Sarah and I, there were quite a few disappointments behind the scenes.  So, we turned that to something that hopefully is helpful to other people, but was quite cathartic for us. 

But I think the power of taking a setback and using those four Ps to help you to think about, "How do I use this as an opportunity for growth, as an opportunity for my development?" is a really -- we talk about people owning their development.  I think that's a very positive outcome from something that might have felt very difficult at the time.

Sophie Devonshire: And, Helen, you talked about how do we protect our focus on things that matter to us?  I do think there is the emotional distraction of when there's been disappointment and things going on; but also, we all know that at the moment for so many people, there is this pandemic of overwhelm-itis, there are so many different things.  And for most of us, there are also some amazing choices to be made.

Having spent the time thinking about what really matters, and looking at the Ps and creating something that gives you that clarity, just helps that decision-making, because you can't say yes to everything.  The best bit of advice I was ever given, a few years ago, when somebody said to me, "Darling, you can do anything, but you can't do everything".  Trying to work out what you're choosing to do and talking about it as choices, I think there's definitely a language piece here which helps. 

Once you've defined what matters and where you want to be and what you want to do, that helps you say, "I want to", rather than, "I need to", all the time.  And there's something so different in that.  The way in which you're talking about it is more love language again.

Helen Tupper: And actually, just on the language of love, it does remind me when I was reading this particular part of the book, it reminded me a little bit of Angela Duckworth's work around Grit, and her definition of Grit about being, "Passion and perseverance for long-term meaningful goals".  And I think that idea of love being about passion and perseverance, I think is quite an interesting connection that I made when I was reading it.  The two go in tandem, don't they?!

Moving swiftly on to delivery, so our final stage, right at the top of the 3D model is all about this idea of delivery.  This is where, when I was reading the book, what I took away from was that you wanted people to think about, what is the impact that they want from their work; what is perhaps the legacy that they want to leave, or the difference that they want to make.  Again, as Ben said, quite big topics.  But that's the thing that I love about the book is that you make it really practical.

I think the thing in here that I really hooked onto was, you had these seven meaning statements, which I thought, "This is a really good place to start with something that might feel challenging".  And then you talk about the four lenses of meaning that people could look through.  I wonder if we could just bring that to life for people, because I found that particularly useful, when it is such a big topic that might seem a bit vague for people; that made it very practical and real for me.

Sophie Devonshire: Brilliant.  Well, it's really good to hear that, because that's the intention of what we wanted to do here, which was take these big, seemingly difficult topics, and break them down.  But I think also, for both Ben and I, one of the things we've definitely discovered across our careers and all the work we do, is that sharing stories from other people, finding shortcuts for people and accelerators, through ideas from elsewhere, does help make things a little easier.

So, as you say, those statements that we've got in there to help start people off, because once you've got something else to work with, it helps speed things up; but also, sharing the stories of some of the people we interviewed for the book and spoke to.  And Ben's done a lot of work with Graham Alexander, who's the Founder of the Alexander Partnership, and his help in this was really useful for us.

So, he talks about how important it is when you're leading people, or you're a manager of a team, to actually help your teams and the people you work with really discover what they love, and how to love what they do a little bit more.  That starts, of course, with that self-understanding; and to help direct them, there are four great lenses to look at around that.  And, some of us are more driven by one than another, so there's an honest conversation to be had with your teams and with people to understand that.

So they are: the intrinsic reward, extrinsic reward, relationships and world; four big lenses.  So for some people, the intrinsic reward is really, really important.  The primary motivation is connected with how you feel inside, do you feel valued; are you enjoying what you do; are you gaining satisfaction from your work?  There is something inside you that is really, really important. 

For others, extrinsic is much more important, being honest about, does the title matter; does how your friends are seeing you, the dinner party conversation, matter; do you want status, fame, recognition and remuneration?  Different people are driven by different parts for this.

For some of us, relationships are critical.  Does being part of a team and collaboration matter?  I've certainly worked with people who felt that they wanted to be entrepreneurs and start-up founders, but actually really miss the team; or those who've become consultants, and actually relationships can be a real driver for people in what work means to them.

Then lastly, we talk of course about purpose, and we think that that fuels you, but understanding how your work fits with the world.  For some people, even more important, a lens here to look at is your primary motivation linked with helping create a better world; does the meaningful work you do make a tangible difference to others?  It's pretty important for an awful lot of people.  For some, that's a massive driver and absolutely critical. 

But spending a bit of time talking through and thinking through with the people you work with, or doing it yourself, to understand how you articulate intrinsic reward, what really matters; do you feel value; do you want to enjoy what you do?  For me, enjoying my work is absolutely critical, it's an important part of it.  Extrinsic reward, relationships and the impact you have on the world, if you can work with people to help them understand how they can love what they do more often, then it doesn't have to be about everybody throwing it all in and going to do a completely different career.  You can actually recraft and reshape your current relationship with work.

I think as leaders and managers, actually helping people understand that, that if they're going through a moment when they feel stuck, or it's a bumpy patch in their relationship with work, getting to their intrinsic drivers and understanding what matters to them from a sense of meaning, can really help unlock a better flourishing in their current roles that they may not have to jump ship.

Helen Tupper: I agree, and we talk about, in You Coach You, the importance of combining two things in tandem, like self-awareness and action.  And I think that these sorts of lenses help you to do both.  So, you could consider these on your own.  I think it's really powerful if you can talk about them with other people; but just understanding, non-judgementally, which of these things is meaningful and motivating to me, and specifically what does it look like.  To your point, if someone's motivated by status and salary, then fine, let's be honest about that, but let's have a conversation about what that could look like here.

I think people, when self-judgement creeps in, and I might think, "Sophie and Ben will think I'm bad for saying that I really want to be really senior", or whatever it is, I think non-judgemental conversations, where people have a high level of self-awareness and are supported to take action, I think that's how we help everybody love work and start to have more open conversations, and not make people feel like they have to confirm to one particular way of working, or one definition of what it means to love your work.

Sophie Devonshire: Yeah, and that's ultimately what diversity is inside an organisation.  It is allowing people to be themselves and respecting the fact that they're different, and joking around the fact that they're different, it's like going back to dating relationships again.  We don't all have the same taste, and that's completely fine and good, because then that makes things work actually better.  You can have different teams, you can have different people in different teams working together.  So, it is good to celebrate the differences, but it does require honesty from people.

Helen Tupper: Thank you so much for listening to this.  I really hope that you scribbled lots of notes down and that you've got some ideas of things that you can do and take away from listening today.  If you do have feedback on the series, let us know.  We're helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com.  It's lovely to hear from you, and if you found it useful, please do rate, review and subscribe to the podcast so that we can reach more people and help more people with their Squiggly Career.  Bye for now.