Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:02: Ending job search misery
00:04:20: Interview success and failure
00:05:42: Changing mindset for interviews
00:06:54: The pain of redundancy
00:07:35: Job Search Hacks Live
00:08:32: Creativity, community, consistency
00:09:56: Bias in the recruitment market
00:11:04: Optimism for the future
00:11:48: Support the change
00:13:23: Career advice
00:14:07: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Helen Tupper: Hi, I'm Helen Tupper and this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, and today's episode is one of a series of short conversations that Sarah and I have had with this year's LinkedIn Changemakers, which is really exciting, because we're very proud to be one of those Changemakers too.  Each of the people that we are speaking to is pioneering change in the world of work, and they're making a really important difference in areas including equality, mental health and sustainability.  We're really looking forward to learning more about how they make change happen, their hopes for the future and how we can all get involved to support them too.

So today, you're going to hear my conversation with Andrew Macaskill, and Andrew is on a mission to end job search misery, which gets big thumbs up from Sarah and I, because I think that job search process can be so hard for people and it takes a lot of energy and resilience to keep going when it can sometimes feel quite difficult, and you don't get a lot of feedback on why.

Andrew himself actually went through an expected redundancy, and now he spends his time helping job seekers navigate the everchanging job market to overcome setbacks, and also to give people the confidence they need in those really big moments in their careers.  He's got lots of insights and so much energy as well, and I really enjoyed talking to him.  So, I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation, and I will be back at the end to let you know how you can learn a bit more about Andrew's work, and also who else you're going to be hearing from in this Changemaker series.

Helen Tupper: Hi, Andrew, and welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.

Andrew Macaskill: Thank you very much for having me, it's great to be here, Helen.

Helen Tupper: And we're recording this on the day the campaign has gone live.  How are you feeling; it's quite early in the morning, it's not been out in the world very long?

Andrew Macaskill: No, I'm feeling really excited.  We both posted this morning, didn't we, and the initial reaction's been very, very positive.

Helen Tupper: It's so nice.

Andrew Macaskill: So, the phone's been pinging, it sounds like there's a lot of support for what we're trying to achieve.  So, yeah, great start I think.

Helen Tupper: So, let's start there then.  What are you trying to achieve; what is the change that you want to make in the world?

Andrew Macaskill: Sure.  So, our mission and the change we want to make in the world is to end job search misery.  That's our North Start; that's the thing that guides us every day in terms of what we're doing.

Helen Tupper: And, where did that become your mission; what was the spark that got you started?

Andrew Macaskill: So, the origin story of all this was, I was running an executive recruitment firm.  We were medium-sized, 85 people, 5 countries.  It had lots of different leaders and candidates coming through the place.  And, we just noticed that job searching had changed more in the last 5 years than probably the previous 25.  People were struggling with things like social media and personal branding and new interview techniques, and outgrowing their network in general.  So, we were finding that people were really struggling whilst they were on the market.

At that point, we commissioned a bit of research internally, because we started to spot some trends.  The research that we did was, we got every single shortlist that we put forward to a client; we ranked each candidate between the most keen at the top and the least keen at the bottom.  So, the most keen candidates were people who were on the market, really wanted to get hired, very, very keen for the role; and the least keen candidates were people who we'd had to influence and coerce into going to meet the client and be part of the recruitment process.

So, if keenness wasn't a factor, and if availability wasn't a factor, then of course you'd have a 20% chance of each candidate getting the role.  But what we found, really frustratingly, was that the most keen candidate, the candidate that most needed the role, was out of work, was often even desperate for the role, only got offered the role 5% of the time.  But the least keen candidate, so the one who didn't want it, the one who we'd had to really push to go for the interview, etc, got offered the role 40% of the time. 

So, there was this horrible dynamic whereby you were eight times more likely to get offered a job if you didn't want it or need it, at which point we thought we'd better start trying to work out why that is and start to offer some services to help these people in transition, because it was really easy for people to fall into a negative cycle, have a confidence crisis; and it's one of these horrible things that the longer it went on, the more desperate they got, the more knockbacks they got, the least likely they were to get hired.  So, it was that particular insight that kicked off the mission initially.

Helen Tupper: Oh, my gosh, I so want to delve in!  So, is it about people playing hard to get?  I want to dive into a solution, and I really want to focus on how you make all this change happen!  I'm very intrigued about the outcomes of that.  Give us a little bit of insight into how you go about making that change, so that it's not those people that are disengaged who are ultimately more successful in the recruitment.

Andrew Macaskill: Yeah, totally.  So, it's funny that you use the dating analogy, right, in terms of the hard to get, because there's definitely an element of that.  So, I was both frustrated and flabbergasted by this, right, and I sat in on a lot of interview panels.  Once I started doing that, it became abundantly clear why this was.

So, people who were going into interviews without any emotional attachment to the result of the interview were more honest, were more authentic.  They treated the interview as a two-way process, so the communication was very adult to adult; they were asking really challenging and incisive questions; and ultimately, they just built trust; that's what it was.  They were building trust through not being over pushy or not having such an emotional attachment.

So, a lot of the work that we do, obviously we help people attract in opportunities for personal branding and LinkedIn and CVs and all of that good stuff; but a lot of the work we do is actually mindset related in terms of how to enter into an interview conversation in a way that attracts an offer and really gets you at your own way.

Helen Tupper: This is fascinating.  It's making me think about interviews I've been in where, you know you're too keen and too nice?  So, really interesting.  Okay, lots of tips there for people with interviews.  But when you mentioned mindset there, changing mindset is hard.  That's going to take a lot of effort and energy from you and at an individual level, one person's mindset, to an industry level, multiple people's mindsets, maybe millions of people's mindsets.  What keeps you going, because change isn't always easy and you're taking on quite a big challenge?

Andrew Macaskill: What keeps me going is really easy, Helen.  I'm completely spoilt every single day and week with people sending me messages saying, "That little tip that you gave me before the interview, I've just got the offer".  I had a text message at 10.00pm last night, one of my ongoing clients, who's just landed a role at eBay, a dream role.

I have absolutely no issue with keeping going on the mission, because I'm completely spoilt with recognition.  But also, I'm faced every single day with a lot of people in a lot of pain, in trying to help people broadly who are in transition, who can't afford our services or whatever, through content and our books and everything we're putting out there.  So, I'm inspired by both the results, but also the pain that I see and the struggle that I see for people who are in transition; because, it doesn't just affect one person.

I don't know if you've ever been made redundant yourself, have you; have you ever been in that situation?

Helen Tupper: Yeah, I've gone through my role.  When I was coming back from maternity leave and my baby was -- it was literally the first day I'd got back from my maternity leave; my baby was four months old!

Andrew Macaskill: Wow, right, charming!  So, there you go.  So, needless to say, without deep diving into that, you would have suffered almost a grieving process.  It's a huge change, you get angry, you can start to obsess about your previous employer, quite often there's some sort of fighting and legals and contractuals involved; all of that stuff is super, super stressful.  So, yeah, it's seeing the suffering and seeing the results, I literally have no issue cracking on at the moment; we're really getting stuck in.

Helen Tupper: And, is there a particular moment over the last 12 months that you feel really proud of, that really signifies the significant of what you're doing?

Andrew Macaskill: Yeah.  So, the moment I feel most proud of is, every Thursday at 12.15pm on LinkedIn, we've had 65 episodes now, where every Thursday we go on and we do what we call our Job Search Hacks Live.  This is for an international audience of job seekers, and they come on and they ask us questions about CVs or LinkedIn or interviewing or working with headhunters, whatever it might be, and we just give them as much value as we can. 

That is the thing that I'm the most proud of is that show, because there's a community that's built behind that who are supporting each other, who are working to make sure that each other doesn't feel isolated, and they've actually helped a number of times; that community's joined up in a way that's actually delivered people into roles, which is just amazing.  So, that community that we've built, over and above anything in terms of what we've done with the business and everything else, that's the bit that I'm most proud of.  It's been great to watch.

Helen Tupper: I was just reflecting on the change that we're making in Amazing if, and sometimes what's worked.  I can see some parallels in what you've just said there.  A combination of creativity, community and consistency, ie, you have an idea, that's the creativity; you pull a community around it, who are inspired by that idea, the Job Search Hacks; and then, you're just consistent.

Somebody asked me the other day, "How have you built such a big community?" and I'm like, "I just keep doing the same things every week and people just keep coming".  That part of it isn't rocket science, really.

Andrew Macaskill: No.  Well, I like your 3Cs model there; I think that's absolutely on the money!  And, yeah, we got very fortunate with the timing as well, because when we set up the business and left the executive recruitment world and went all in on this particular vision, it was December 2019.  It was record low unemployment, we were thinking, "Oh, yeah, maybe we'll pick up a few clients and this will all be good".  And of course, three or four months later, suddenly the whole world changes; our followership, just through the fact that we were in the right place at the right time, went through the roof; and all of a sudden, we were given this platform that we're now trying to make sure that we pay it forward and that we help as many people as possible.

Helen Tupper: That's brilliant, it's really inspiring.  Has anything surprised you as you've gone about this change that maybe, I don't know, challenged some of your assumptions, or went over and above your expectations; I guess, a learning that has surprised you along the way?

Andrew Macaskill: Well, there's been heaps.  But one that really sticks out is the bias that exists in the recruitment market.  So, when I was on the other side of the fence, I downplayed both conscious and unconscious bias; I didn't believe it was a huge factor in how the decisions were being made.  But having now reverse-engineered it and sat working with the job seekers, with the candidates, I see an incredible amount of bias out there that we need to work on.  And I find that really, really disappointing.  Not all of it is voluntary, but I think there's a lot more education required in that space to remove some of the bias that's involved in the processes.

Helen Tupper: I think there's another really good insight in that; if you're trying to make change, make sure that you see both sides of the world that you're trying to change.  I think sometimes, you come at it from one perspective, and then you're better able to influence when you can see both sides too?

Andrew Macaskill: Well, I think as part of a Squiggly Career strategy, that makes sense.  I think, if you're a buyer, the best thing you could do would be to do a couple of years in sales, before you then went back to being a buyer; it would make you a better buyer to do that, for exactly that same reason.  When people are asking us for career advice, we're talking to them about that.  You're absolutely right.  Reverse-engineering from the other side of the fence is so insightful, it's incredible.

Helen Tupper: And, how optimistic are you feeling about the future in the context of the change that you're making?

Andrew Macaskill: I'm very optimistic with the Changemaking campaign, with kind people like yourself inviting us on to podcasts and the platform that we're getting to talk about what we're doing.  I feel like we're getting our message out there.  I feel like employers are also being held to account in terms of making sure that they're dealing with job seekers appropriately, giving feedback, being transparent, running fair and equitable processes, all of that stuff.  So, I'm super optimistic.

I feel like the change was already happening, but the last two years and the COVID and everything else has really accelerated that; and whilst it's been a terrible time for so many people, I think there's a whole heap of positive innovations and appetite for change that's coming out the back of it.

Helen Tupper: Oh, I feel excited about it talking to you!  Our listeners are a very active and supportive group.  If there was one thing that they could do to support you in the change you're making, what would it be?

Andrew Macaskill: There's this thing called the Etch-a-Sketch Effect, Helen, which is when you're in the job market, you're very in tune with how hard it feels and how tough it is and the constant rejection and everything.  But then you land in role, and the Etch-a-Sketch Effect happens, as I call it, which is you wipe that clean, you drop straight into your new role as a marketing director, or whatever you end up doing, and you completely forget what it feels like to be on the job market.

Now, the one thing everybody listening to this podcast can do is, if you're in a job right now, don't forget, pledge that you won't forget that it's a human behind that CV, there's a human on the other side of that interview table, and they're going through a really tricky time.  So, simply giving the gift of good feedback, making sure that you reply to what they're doing, checking in on friends and family, who are telling you they're all right when they might not be, that's what everyone can be doing.

Helen Tupper: And, if people want to find out more about your work, maybe they want to join the LinkedIn sessions that are happening every week, or get some of the tools and resources that you're putting out, where should they go?

Andrew Macaskill: Thank you.  So, @andrewmacaskill, obviously LinkedIn being our main channel at the moment.  Please do follow and connect on there.  As I say, we go live at 12.15pm.  And we've got a website, which has got a whole heap of free resources for people in transition, and that's www.execcareerjump.com.

Helen Tupper: And, I will put all of the links for that in the description, so everyone will be able to find that very, very easily.  I've been on there and looked on it and there's loads of good stuff, so everyone should be heading off there.

One last question for you.  I feel like we've packed a lot into our conversation, but one last one: a piece of career advice, maybe something that has inspired you, or something that you think could help our listeners with their career going forward?

Andrew Macaskill: It's an old one, but a good one.  Pick a leader, not a job.  That is the best bit of career advice anyone could ever give you.  So many people are obsessed with the brand they're working for, the product they're working for, the job title.  It's all irrelevant in comparison to the relationship you have with your direct leader.

Fulfilment comes from working for somebody that you trust, who trusts you, and in a way that brings success for you both.  So, pick a leader, not a job; that's my best tip.

Helen Tupper: Thank you so much for listening to today's special episode of the Squiggly Careers Changemakers podcast, and if you would like to learn more about Andrew's work, you can find all of the links in our show notes, to his website and also his LinkedIn profile, where you can join some of those sessions that he mentioned that he does on LinkedIn Live.

Don't forget that you can also listen to some of the other short conversations we've had with the LinkedIn Changemakers, including Leyla Acaroglu, sharing her work on sustainability, and my conversation with Martyn Sibley, which was discussing disability equality as well.  So, I hope you find those useful.  Do let us know if you've got any feedback, we love to hear how you've been inspired by these conversations as well.  You can just email us: we're helen&sarah@squigglycareers.com.

We'll both be back with you again very soon.  So, bye for now.