Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction
00:02:47: UK Black Pride
00:04:55: Pivotal moment
00:06:16: Imaging and reimagining change
00:10:42: COVID impact
00:14:42: Role models
00:17:48: Be involved
00:22:32: Phyll's career advice
00:23:34: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hello, I'm Sarah Ellis and this is the Squiggly Careers podcast.  This episode is one of a very special series of short conversations that we've had with this year's LinkedIn Changemakers, which we're also really proud to be included in.  Each of the people that we talk to is pioneering important change in the world of work, making a difference in areas including equality, mental health and sustainability.  We're really looking forward to learning more about how they've made change happen, their hopes for the future and how we can all get involved.

Today, you'll be hearing my conversation with Phyll Opoku-Gyimah.  This is a conversation that I will always remember.  Phyll is an incredibly inspiring person to spend time with, not only because the work that she has done and continues to do really is the epitome of what it means to be a changemaker: she was one of the co-founders of UK Black Pride, she's now an executive director of an organisation called the Kaleidoscope Trust, who work to uphold human rights of the LBTQI+ people across the world; but she also just has this real generosity of spirit and optimism and just inclusion, which I guess is no surprise, that shines through in everything that she says and that she does.

It just felt like such a pleasure and a privilege to spend time with her, and I learned so much as well as just felt really uplifted by our conversation together.  I hope you have the same feeling listening wherever you're listening today, and I'll be back at the end to let you know who else you can hear from in the series and also where you can find links to learn more about the amazing work that Phyll and her teams do.

Phyll, thank you so much for joining us today on the Squiggly Careers Podcast, I'm really excited about our conversation.

Phyll Opoku-Gyimah: Thank you so much for having me.  This is like a pleasure to have great conversation with great changemakers and people who are doing wonderful things.

Sarah Ellis: I wonder if we could start today's conversation, if perhaps people aren't familiar with your work, maybe you could just talk to us a bit about the change that you are pioneering and so passionate about leading in the work that you do today, but it's also been your work really for all of your life, I think, certainly from the research and the interviews that I've read about you.

Phyll Opoku-Gyimah: Yes, so I guess it's always weird when someone asks you to talk about your work, because especially sometimes as women, we don't often sing our own praises and talk about the great changes that we've made.  So, my job or my roles are, I am a Co-founder and Executive Director of UK Black Pride.  UK Black Pride is not just a one-day pride celebration, but it's an event and a movement that really works to foster great links with those from the African/Caribbean, Asian, Middle Eastern, Latin American who happen to be LGBTQIA+. 

Really, this was created and born out of I would say a necessity, out of a frustration, out of us not seeing ourselves in the wider LGBT mainstream movements, and also Prides itself.  It's about tackling racism, homophobia, biphobia, Islamophobia, all of the many discriminations that touch our lives.  That is really my volunteer work, because nobody within the UK Black Pride team are paid to do this work, so we're all volunteers.

Then I have a day job.  I head up an international LGBT human rights charity called Kaleidoscope Trust, which really is about making sure we can uphold human rights for LBGT+ people around the world and primarily in the Commonwealth.

Sarah Ellis: I was reading a brilliant article about you in GQ, which I'll include in the show notes for today's episode, and I just thought your answers were really fascinating.  It sounded to me that equality and the kind of desire to work in equality to make things fair and equal for everyone, has almost always been part of your DNA.  Have I understood that right or was there a particular moment at work where you suddenly thought, "I am going to make this my life's work"?  Because for some people, some of the changemakers we've spoken to, there was a particular moment or event that changed the course of their career or their life; but for you, I just sense that it was almost just who you are, but I could be wrong, because this is the first time that we're talking.

Phyll Opoku-Gyimah: No, you're absolutely right.  I guess if I'm asked, "What was that really pivotal moment that made you say this is what you're going into?"  I guess being born a black girl showed me that there will be challenges that you face, and I think the way that I have had to navigate society, navigate the world has told me that equity and the inequalities that we see are things that I always want to change.

There's a quote from Audre Lorde, "None of us are free until all of us are free".  I can't profess to sit here about making change if I am only doing this for a select group of people, if I'm only focusing on just myself and a few others.  So, yeah, my work around equality, justice, equity, freedoms, inclusion, intersectionality, all of that has been I would say from day dot.  I have a very powerful mother and father who have come to this country with little or less than nothing and they have always fought for what they have.  They have also taught me that nothing is just handed to you on a plate, so we have to work hard.

Sarah Ellis: Actually, that word "hard" is really interesting, because I think creating any change, any type of change is always hard, because we're trying to encourage and ask and prompt and provoke people to do something different, to change behaviour in some way, or to think in a different way.  The work that you do I think is particularly hard.  All change is hard but it's not easy the areas that you pioneer. 

So, in those moments where it has felt difficult, and we'll have lots of listeners who I'm sure would really -- that are perhaps aspiring to do similar work to yourself or are trying to do similar work, what does keep you going when it feels really tough, and you have those difficult days where it perhaps feels like we're taking three steps backwards before we make any steps forward; what helps you in those times?

Phyll Opoku-Gyimah: Oh my gosh, such a brilliant question.  I look at progress as not a one size fits all.  One of the things that I do constantly to keep myself going is, I'm always reimagining what difference looks like.  I'm always reimagining what it feels like or will feel like for people to not have to deal with the hurt and pain that's called racism or white supremacy.  I'm always reimagining what it's like to be able to occupy spaces and not have to be tokenised or not have to be discriminated.  I'm always reimaging difference around what does it mean for one to have the right to love who they love.  What does it mean for us to have access to good health, to come out of poverty?

I guess that's what keeps me going, because the moment I stop imagining or reimagining, that means that I become complacent because I'm comfortable in where I am.  That might also mean that I'm kind of okay and it's just comme ci comme ça and that's not the case.  I think when you're looking at change that you want to create, you also have to remember that no man, no woman, no person is an island, and it has to be done within this collective struggle of life.  You have to bring people with you.  You have to understand the different intersections of people's lives and think about how do you have an amplified voice on many, many different causes and situations that means that you're turning up the volume on society.  So, I guess for me it's reimagining.

What keeps me going is knowing that there are others, especially the next generation, who are so strong-minded, they are determined, they are committed to really wanting to see change.  There's a quote that I use all the time that's about the next generation.  It says, "You do not inherit this land from your parents or your carers, you borrow it from the next generation".  So that means to me, I have an absolute duty of care, I have a responsibility to make sure the next generation are not struggling half as much as I am, the same way those people, whose shoulders I stand on, have made it possible for me to even have a conversation like this with you.

For me to even occupy spaces and go into meetings with high level officials, we make it easier always for the next set of people that come after us.  If we're not doing that, then I think we need to re-evaluate and question, "Who are we doing this for?"

Sarah Ellis: It's such a brilliant approach to adversity and to those difficult days that we talked about in terms of keeping you optimistic, and also that kind of sense of why are you doing the work that you do?

When you think about the past year, some of your work must have been really impacted by COVID, in terms of how you work and also what you're able to create.  I'm really interested in terms of when you do think back to the last 12 or 18 months, which has been difficult in so many ways, even in spite of all of this adversity, coming from all different directions to be honest in the last 12 to 18 months, has there been a standout moment where you've just felt really proud about the progress that you, and of course the others around you, have been able to make?

Phyll Opoku-Gyimah: I guess I will always say UK Black Pride is always a proud moment.  I think given that many Prides around the Country, around the World, had to put their events on hold.  We still managed to have an online event that catered for many, it was transformative, it was liberating, it was empowering.  We got deeper into communities; we had more people attend our online event than we'd ever have in an in-person event.  It showed us there's a need and an appetite

But what we actually did through the two Prides was, we spoke about home and the many people who are stuck at home, but they're also in homes where they don't feel safe about who they are, whether they're trans, non-binary, they're queer, lesbian, gay, bisexual and they're in homes that they really wanted to sort of get out of, but because of COVID, they were restricted there.  We made sure that this was about us connecting, them having some solidarity but also some respite. 

We made sure that we were also able to tap into our migrants and refugee community and asylum seekers by using money that we had raised to top up their data so that they could join.  Because in this world of COVID, people automatically assume that you can jump online and take a call, whereas when you think about those who are even more marginalised, that don't have that funds, how can they participate in something if they don't have data.  So, we had to think differently, and this is what inclusion, the work around inclusion's about thinking differently about who is participating in spaces.  Do you have all voices?

Then I think what I am also proud of is just looking at the work that I and my teams have done through Kaleidoscope Trust and UK Black Pride, which has lent itself to understanding what being compassionate and kind and loving is all about.  Many of us in the Black and the POC, which is People of Colour, queer communities, we've lost people through COVID, we've seen a disproportionate impact on Black and Asian and other minority groups, because of how it's disproportionately hit them. 

We're still dealing with the effects of whether it's Grenfell, whether it's the Windrush, whether it's homelessness.  So, compassion throughout these last 12 to 18 months has gone a long way in just making sure people know that we are here for you.  We want to be transformative with you, but we want to also support.  We want to be that listening ear, we want to be that person that you wish to cry with, that you wish to laugh with, but more importantly that we can hold space and be chosen family with each other, even though we are going through a pandemic.  So that's what I'm most proud of that we've still been able to connect.

Sarah Ellis: I'm interested to know, you talked about you stand on the shoulders of the people that have come before you, and I just wondered whether there are any particular role models that you've had in your life, whether those are personal ones or people who aren't with us anymore, but people that you have always looked to for inspiration who perhaps have showed you the art of the possible?

Phyll Opoku-Gyimah: Oh my gosh, Sarah, there's so many people.  So, I guess those who are no longer with us, I would say your Toni Morrison's because I love reading her books from Sula to Beloved.  Audre Lorde, her work that really speaks to intersectionality before it was even coined by Professor Kimberlé Crenshaw.  There's so many: James Baldwin, who's work has inspired me; Langston Hughes.

I would say in the living, you have people like Kimberlé Crenshaw; you have Chloe Cousins from Manchester, Rainbow in the Water; Tanya Compas that runs Exist Loudly; Josh Rivers from Busy Being Black; Aisha Shaibu from Moonlight Experience; and Alexia Lenoir from UK Black Pride; and Moud Goba.  There are so many people and I often use the opportunity to write about them and how they've helped shape what I do.  Forgive me for missing anybody out, but the one main person that consistently and constantly inspires me is my daughter.

My daughter has just turned 26, and I remember when she was going through university, she joined every society possible and I kept on saying to her, "If you are part of the LGBT+ community, you can tell me, I'm here for you".  She's like, "Mum, being gay is not hereditary.  I just want to be able to support wherever I can".  I guess my journey of coming out and also being where I'm at today, she is so supportive and she even broke up with her boyfriend because he was a little bit homophobic on some of the things that he said, and she cut that off at the knees, because she is not standing for any form of discrimination.

I'm like, "If I leave this earth today, I have left a legacy, I have left a young person who is going to take up the baton, hold up what we've fought for so hard and continue to do the work", that's why I'm inspired by her.

Sarah Ellis: She sounds amazing, as do all the other people that you mentioned.  What we will do for everybody listening, because I know some people listen to this while they are out walking or perhaps in the car, I will research all of those people and we will put links to all of their work in our show notes.

On that, Phyll, if people are listening and thinking, "How can I help?  What can I do to get involved, to support?  I appreciate this must be a question that you are asked a lot, but I think sometimes people aren't sure where to start or how they can be useful.  Where would you encourage people to?  Is it about working on themselves and thinking about educating yourself and understanding more about this area, or is it about more you talk about allyship, and actions, obviously not centring yourself, but being very active in your support? 

I'd just be interested as we come to the end of the conversation, to all of the people listening who will have been really inspired, I know, listening to our conversation today, what I want people to do is do more than listen; so what does that look like?

Phyll Opoku-Gyimah: I guess it is all of what you said, but when we're talking about allyship and what people want to do, I'm always clear that allyship is situational.  It is not a one size fits all, there are many different things.  So I would say firstly, this is about do your homework and your research, Google is your friend.  Think about what books you can read, like there's a book called Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race, by Reni Eddo-Lodge.  There's Critical Race Theory.  If it's about LGBT+, there are so many resources.  Start with the Stonewall riots, why that was there, why that happened; to look at the research and the information around UK Black Pride and making those synergies and connections.  That's about doing your homework.

Then I would say second, make sure you are listening to those with the lived experience who are telling you this is what is happening for them, this is how it feels, and this is what they want to do about it.  As you rightfully said, Sarah, don't make this about you as an individual and centre yourself in a struggle or a movement that is not necessarily about you, but think about how you can listen and actually actively listen and engage.

Thirdly, I would say this is about putting your money where your mouth is, if you can.  If you are working in a big organisation or you're leading an organisation or you have a pretty penny or two, think about how you can support by donating to those grassroots organisations, which haven't historically had the same funding or resources as other big entities.  It goes a long way if an organisation, which is grassroots-led, can have some resource to continue doing the very necessary and important work that they do.

Then I would say there is volunteering.  On most people's websites, you can volunteer your time, whether it is for a Pride event, or whether you have some skills around financing, marketing, IT, whatever that may be, volunteer your time.  Whether it's one hour for the month, it's helpful and I know some companies, especially corporates or commercials, they do give volunteering time to their staff.

Then lastly, if your allyship is not rooted in solidarity, then it's not allyship.  Solidarity is absolutely key in really wanting to help affect change, even if it doesn't seem like it's your struggle, because we have to understand your struggle, Sarah, has got to be my struggle and my struggle has to be yours.  That's the only way we are going to come together collectively if we're talking about Black Lives Matter, if we're talking about stamping out transphobia in our communities, if we're talking about the lack of access that our disabled or differently abled persons are going through, if we're talking about young people and them not being seen or not having adequate housing, if we're talking about women and the equal pay gap that still exists.

If we're talking about any of those protective characteristics, we have got to be able to be in solidarity with each other and also listen to each other.  I hope that's helpful for your wonderful listeners.

Sarah Ellis: It is.

Phyll Opoku-Gyimah: Wow, it's been a pleasure speaking with you, Sarah.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you so much, Phyll.  My final very quick question, because we ask all of our guests this, is if you were going to share one piece of career advice with everybody, what would it be?

Phyll Opoku-Gyimah: Gosh, now you've got me.  I would say one piece of career advice, I don’t deal with just authenticity, because that's very different for each person and how people experience you, but I do deal with bringing your whole professional self to the table and knowing that what you have to say is valid and it's worthy and it's necessary to be heard.  Don't shy away from speaking up and don’t have yourself silenced in spaces where you haven't ordinarily spoken before.  Know that there are other people out there who are rooting for you.

Sarah Ellis: Thank you for listening to today's special episode of the Squiggly Careers Changemakers podcast.  I hope you found listening to Phyll as inspiring as I did talking to her.  As always in our show notes, we'll include lots of links if you want to find out more, and don't forget you can also listen to our other short conversations with LinkedIn Changemakers including Dr Leyla Acaroglu sharing her work on sustainability and Martyn Sibley who discusses disability equality.

That's all for today, we'll be back with you again soon, bye for now.